georg Posted August 16, 2009 Share #61 Posted August 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) A 96% viewfinder would save about 1mm on the horizontal - size issues are hardly imaginable. The R8/9 had a 96% viewfinder because it's close to the practical slide-size (with frame). "1/125th sync for the focal plane shutter. Due to the size of the shutter?" It's an ordinary Seiko-shutter, similar models are also used in all the other 645-focal-plane-shutter-systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 Hi georg, Take a look here Press Release: S2 Technical Specs.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #62 Posted August 16, 2009 For a good description of pixel-binning read this. It should clear it up for you. And to correct Guy, Phase One's pixel-binning approach quadruples ISO performance, not doubles - 800 x 4 = 3200. Thanks Carlos for picking up on that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #63 Posted August 16, 2009 Not sure 96 percent is a really big deal. It certainly would be a pain when doing certain jobs like copying art work and such. I think even the M8 used the old style mask framing for slides. It would be nicer to see outside the sensor lines though. I do like that in the M8, DMR and now with my Phase gear. More of my nit is the 3:2 image ratio. I really got used to 4:3 and really like it better and I shot 35mm for years. Certainly something to readjust back to. My biggest personal issue on that is I very very rarely crop after the fact. I am a do everything in camera composition person. So liking the 4:3 I actually may have to crop. But I have been up and down this format change for many years so maybe not a big deal in the end. Need to get my hands on it and see if it fits me or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beamon Posted August 16, 2009 Share #64 Posted August 16, 2009 But what's the point if you have no intention of buying one? It'll just be a waste of time when you could be out earning money won't it? You've already told us several times that it isn't competitive on price in the MF arena, and your posts on your forum have indicated that you think Leica have screwed up big time. It's called intellectual curiosity, Steve. As a non-pro I have absolutely no need for MF or near MF and will not be a prospect for the S2. I am, however, keenly interested in the S2 and whatever technology and IQ it brings to the table. Guy has stated, many times and correctly, that he is mainly interested in reliability and solid pro type back-up by Leica. Most of us will cede IQ to the S2, but reliability and back-up can only be determined by "time in type". It's a major launch and even us 'hangers-on' wait, excitedly! Now, bring on the FF, higher ISO M9, Leica. That does blow up my skirt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #65 Posted August 16, 2009 It would be a curious stat to know if there was not saying there is or is not a M9 released in the coming weeks(months) you have to wonder how many would just jump on that alone for one stat and the other how many would bypass the S and just buy the M9. At some point there are some shooters that would actually compete against the Leica brand within Leica and throw the numbers off on proposed S shooters or not for that matter also. The S is going to be a pretty powerful image maker just by what I know of these types of sensors and obviously the lenses will not disappoint in that regard but how much you need or want would a M9 say at 21mpx be more the ticket for folks. I do hear a lot of the M9 and how many would jump all over it . Maybe a separate thread for this but it would be a interesting topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 16, 2009 Share #66 Posted August 16, 2009 It would be a curious stat to know if there was not saying there is or is not a M9 released in the coming weeks(months) you have to wonder how many would just jump on that alone for one stat and the other how many would bypass the S and just buy the M9. At some point there are some shooters that would actually compete against the Leica brand within Leica and throw the numbers off on proposed S shooters or not for that matter also. The S is going to be a pretty powerful image maker just by what I know of these types of sensors and obviously the lenses will not disappoint in that regard but how much you need or want would a M9 say at 21mpx be more the ticket for folks. I do hear a lot of the M9 and how many would jump all over it . Maybe a separate thread for this but it would be a interesting topic. Guy, regarding the S2 we share similar thoughts and opinions which are not necessarily all in its favour. Yet, like you I am curious to learn more about the S2. But it will take a lot more than presented so far to make me reconsider. The S2's price is still the biggest deal breaker for me. To clarify, I'm not talking about the $24,000 price range per se. Going for a P40+ or a H3DII50 is more or less the same money. That's the price of doing business in this league. My point is simply that as a tweener camera the S2 is simply not in the same league. Plus, as one body with four lenses it's not much of a system either. Anyhow, believing the rumors the M9 could indeed become an interesting alternative for many. I just hope they keep it more realistic when it comes to price as the rumored 10k. Or have a lot more to offer than just a FF sensor and 21mpx. Let's not forget, one can buy that already for about 3k. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #67 Posted August 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M9 needs to have electronic masking instead of the old style and at 100 percent frame accuracy so when you stick a 75 lens on it the frame lines electronically come up. Now extra option and could be a nice feature is it got bigger in the finder with magnification so every lens you put on it comes to the same magnification in the finder but with the correct lens angles. With something like this it would make the M system a much easier product to view, focus and shoot. I know asking a lot there but both those features would put it in a league by itself. Anyway that was OT. I agree the S2 has some nice benefits to it and should prove to be a interesting product but like anything else it has some limitations to it that will bug some folks and not others. I certainly have my nits about it and even have those with my current system. It comes to what compromises you are willing to deal with. I certainly like to know more about it , tear it apart and see what makes it tick for sure.The buy or not buy decision is not important until this is fully out on the streets for me. I just have to have a full system out there to make any change if I wanted too. There are a lot of check marks to hit and we have not even really started yet. But it's fun to discuss it and learn more about it regardless of we get it or not. I certainly will say right now that those that really want it and on pre-orders it should prove to be a very worthy system but only if you understand it and it works within your style of shooting. And i certainly don't want to discourage anyone from getting it , just know what your getting in any of these MF systems is important to know the facts of them. None of them are perfect Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 16, 2009 Share #68 Posted August 16, 2009 Guy, I for one, think you will have an S2 by Thanksgiving. I just don't think you can resist. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 16, 2009 Share #69 Posted August 16, 2009 Guy, I for one, think you will have an S2 by Thanksgiving Guy's already said he's not interested on his forum. To quote... "Sorry folks this is so overpriced you would seriously need to have your head examined to consider this option." and... "I feel for the Leica dealers, how much BS do you have to lay out for someone to even consider this" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 16, 2009 Share #70 Posted August 16, 2009 I stand by my prediction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #71 Posted August 16, 2009 Guy, I for one, think you will have an S2 by Thanksgiving. I just don't think you can resist.:D No not a chance. Besides the nits i still have to justify any kind of switch and this system is expensive and that thought will not change.It is going to be a big swing of the golf club to handle the switch. Honestly just going to a Phase P40+ sensor would cost me between selling mine and buying about 8k and that is something I would have to justify. 8k in reality is a 35mm smi-pro system if I wanted one. Steve keeps loving to quote me and I still stick by my comments but those comments also came when I learned of the price , pure sticker shock out of the gate. No question about it like many I expected 18k for the body and about 4500 for each lens. Those numbers would clearly put the S2 on the map for folks. Leica could not do it and our dollar just flat out sucks right now. Obviously US buyers are caught in a bad position right now. The Euro buyers this may not be such a stretch and I also don't know the euro prices on comparable systems. I am going by US prices. BTW Steve you can let your daggers down everyone is pretty sick of the backstabbing. Go find someone else to quote you are seriously getting childish. People certainly have there opinions and have the right to waffle on pricing in any direction. This is a shit load of money and I don't see you raising your hand to buy one and anyone thinking of buying it at least for a brief moment has to think about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 16, 2009 Share #72 Posted August 16, 2009 I agree Guy. But I still think you will figure out a way to buy one!! ;) I know I have been on a roller coaster between being totally pissed off to figuring out how I can buy the S2 to being pissed off and back and forth. Leica caught most of us off guard I think with that pricing. I still don't understand it from a marketing stand point but what do I know about Leica's inner costs? I do know this. I have been doing a lot more research on Hassey's and Phase since they came out with that price. I can buy into a fully operational system for that amount of money and have a future upgradeable path with both of those companies. Who knows when or if Leica will have a complete accessory catalog? Just doesn't make sense to buy into something that has such limited lens and accessory options at this time. And by the time they do I am left to wonder if their price and technical placement will be passed by. So many questions and so much money to spend!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 16, 2009 Share #73 Posted August 16, 2009 I've followed the S2 threads with interest. To be fair Guy you have been quite outspoken against it from the off, comments such as "End of the day it will serve no one well including Leica. SAD", and "Well for me one less thing to think about when on vacation starting tomorrow. I know this will all explode into a nightmare by than so everyone take care and remember it is only a camera , life goes on." and "Does the phrase i will stick with what i have sound reasonable. Certainly does to me." Why such a dramatic turnaround? I'm really interested - what has made you start showing interest now given that you had written it off only so recently? I wonder if others have thought, and are thinking like you, then Leica have a pretty good prospect in the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 16, 2009 Share #74 Posted August 16, 2009 Everyone has the right to change his opinion, particularly after a bit of education and/or experience. I recall another forum member who initially responded to the DMR's pricing by buying a 1-series Canon, then after seeing what the M8 can do said "I've learned my lesson, no more Canon" and gave the EOS system to a family member. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 16, 2009 Share #75 Posted August 16, 2009 Go find someone else to quote you are seriously getting childish. People certainly have there opinions and have the right to waffle on pricing in any direction. This is a shit load of money and I don't see you raising your hand to buy one... I'm merely quoting what you've said elsewhere about the S2, and I was very careful just to add the quotes without interpretation as I realise how prickly you become when people don't see things your way. If on the other hand I've misrepresented your opinion, or misquoted you feel free to correct me. As for the S2, I most certainly will not be buying one as it's way outside of what I'm able to spend on a camera. I don't quite see the relevance whether I'm prepared to buy one on not when I'm responding to a message predicting that _you_ would be buying one, but that's where I stand on the issue. For those who do buy the camera I expect them to be more than happy with their purchase, and I look forward to seeing images produces by the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #76 Posted August 16, 2009 One area we have not touched on much is the backup . Obviously the S system does not have one except another body. Any of the separate back systems you can just have a cheap camera body used be it a Hassy,Phase, Sinar or Contax. Even for that matter have a cheap P21+ back at about 7k used. So we have much cheaper backup options. Yea i totally agree I think many of us would love to jump in but it is a roller coaster. Their are a lot of folks really pissed just on the price alone, I know some Pro's this fits them well and wanted it but scratching there heads how to get one. Any comment in regards to price I think is a very valued one. It is not a cheap system by any means. I told Leica directly on this and they wanted it lower themselves. They simply could not pull it off. What I am hoping for and my bet so are they is it beats the pants off a lot of systems so the price can be more comparable to the higher end systems like a Hassy 50 sensor. Buying a R system for example over a Nikon or Canon would be a simple choice . We all know Leica will beat them in the glass, been there done that and no question my R glass killed everything in sight at the time. MF it is not so easy to beat the others. Zeiss, Rollie, Hassy, Mamiya all make good glass and when you are in this sensor size less of a issue because the sensors are so good. Bigger is better here than 35mm . Even the great digitar lenses for the tech camera's where quality is amazing it is not that far beyond there MF cousins. Yes better but not earth shattering better. So sitting here scratching our heads is more normal than the exception. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #77 Posted August 16, 2009 I'm merely quoting what you've said elsewhere about the S2, and I was very careful just to add the quotes without interpretation as I realise how prickly you become when people don't see things your way. If on the other hand I've misrepresented your opinion, or misquoted you feel free to correct me. As for the S2, I most certainly will not be buying one as it's way outside of what I'm able to spend on a camera. I don't quite see the relevance whether I'm prepared to buy one on not when I'm responding to a message predicting that _you_ would be buying one, but that's where I stand on the issue. For those who do buy the camera I expect them to be more than happy with their purchase, and I look forward to seeing images produces by the camera. Steve the point is you pull something off another forum which you are not even a member and use it to your benefit to try and discredit me. Fine by me but when was the last time i quoted you and made a big deal on what you said or almost anyone for that matter. Never Are we here to make members look like shit or are we here to share information that helps others. I don't come to the Leica forum often anymore but you certainly find a way to my posts and continually find ways to quote me and try to discredit me. Now that is the feeling I get every time I see you post after me . I find it rude and that is all I am saying. If you have a issue with me Steve do us all a favor use the e-mail or PM system that is in place and send me a note and explain your displeasure with me. That is all I ask. I find it very disheartening to continually feel this way when i come to the Leica forum which is a place i find of great interest along with other Leica fans. I'm just asking for a little respect and that is it nothing more and nothing less or i just will not come in here. I do have a life and important people within it that I should probably spend more time with and that is my family. I love to have fun and joke around but please let's leave the mud at the doorstep. I'm truly not the bad guy. End Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #78 Posted August 16, 2009 I've followed the S2 threads with interest. To be fair Guy you have been quite outspoken against it from the off, comments such as "End of the day it will serve no one well including Leica. SAD", and "Well for me one less thing to think about when on vacation starting tomorrow. I know this will all explode into a nightmare by than so everyone take care and remember it is only a camera , life goes on." and "Does the phrase i will stick with what i have sound reasonable. Certainly does to me." Why such a dramatic turnaround? I'm really interested - what has made you start showing interest now given that you had written it off only so recently? I wonder if others have thought, and are thinking like you, then Leica have a pretty good prospect in the S2. Love it if you would put any quote in context to the rest of the conversation and your first quote was about price which it does not serve anyone including Leica if a system is out of reach. So tell me where did I change my mind on that one . Not, it is a very expensive system and the comparable by sensor do not match up. That is one example but regardless put any quote in a single sentence to which it is not part of another conversation is a disservice to the poster because no one knows where this comes from or what the conversation was about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 16, 2009 Share #79 Posted August 16, 2009 Steve the point is you pull something off another forum which you are not even a member and use it to your benefit to try and discredit me. Fine by me but when was the last time i quoted you and made a big deal on what you said or almost anyone for that matter. I was giving an indication of your opinion, without any comment on my part, of the S2 as of three weeks ago, If you can explain how that discredits you I'd be very grateful. If I'd made an incorrect interpretation of your view then you'd have a point. If you want to quote something I've posted feel free, if I've been prepared to put something into the public domain I'm prepared to either stand by it or admit that I've been an arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 16, 2009 Share #80 Posted August 16, 2009 I have no interest whatsoever to even read your posts nor the time or desire to care. So going about and copying peoples quotes and posting them out of context to the conversation at hand is frankly just flat out stupid and only one reason for it and that is to discredit someone. Not my gig nor desire whatsoever. People can ramble all they want and it is fine by me. I stand by whatever i say regardless and at the end of the day i sleep like anyone else. have fun I am going to go work out and ignore this stupidity. But I have been fighting this issue with you for over a year and you still persist in it. Please put me on your ignore list Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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