Press Release: S2 Technical Specs.

[c6gowin]

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...And let's be real honest here who have we heard from on the S2 front , sorry but let's call it like it is not Leica the company...

 

I agree with you on the point that Leica hasn't been exactly flooding the internet with info on the S2. However, I am very grateful that certain persons have taken the time and expense to travel Photokina and PMA as well talk at length with the Leica S2 lens and camera designers to get as much information as possible and then post what the can on the forums. I don't have a problem if those certain persons may have a financial interest in selling the S2. After all, we would all have loved for Leica to have divulged more info sooner and they have far more financial interest at stake.

 

Mark

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

I don't necessarily disagree Mark.

[R10dreamer]

I appreciate everyone that spends their own time coming on here and giving out information. For sure.

 

Guy is right. There are many negatives: price, few lenses, very few accessories, pro service?, lens cost, etc. Time will answer all of these questions. But every day they delay the selling date they are giving their competition a chance to produce something bigger and better.

 

To me, the biggest issue, is the integrated back. The inability, at this point, to upgrade the pixel count, down the road, may be a real problem. But, great glass is great glass and if Leica produces the glass I think they will all other issues will be forgotten.

[dfarkas]

I agree with you on the point that Leica hasn't been exactly flooding the internet with info on the S2. However, I am very grateful that certain persons have taken the time and expense to travel Photokina and PMA as well talk at length with the Leica S2 lens and camera designers to get as much information as possible and then post what the can on the forums. I don't have a problem if those certain persons may have a financial interest in selling the S2. After all, we would all have loved for Leica to have divulged more info sooner and they have far more financial interest at stake.

 

Mark

 

Mark,

 

I like the sound of those "certain persons"

 

Let's not forget the late hours and lost sleep...

 

Sorry I haven't been able to chime in on today's exciting discussion. I'm on the road and had limited access to Internet.

 

David

[earleygallery]

It's usually best to give something a chance to prove itself, rather than damning it from the outset with no factual evidence to hand.

[stunsworth]

...because by the book it is exactly the same as a P40+ in regards to sensor so no more or less is there any gain from the sensor itself...

 

It's the same sensor? That's not what the technical specification in message 1 in this thread says. Leica say that it was developed for the S2.

 

Anyhow, even if it were using the same sensor it will have different firmware, and the image processing software/hardware will also be different.

[georg]

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Actually, the P40+ uses an entirely different sensor - Phase One uses DALSA-sensors, while Leica (and Hasselblad) uses Kodak-sensors. But the past has shown that both companies design sensors of comparable performance. The P40+ is the only back which uses the new 6µm-generation and offers a similar sensor-size. The H3D-50 is the only back using the same sensor as the S2, but it's 4mm wider and 7mm higher.

The interesting thing of the S2 is the combination of microlenses (there is no back with new sensor and microlenses available) and optimized lenses for those microlenses + cover-glass.

I don't know why Leica loves these strange ASA-numbers (the prototypes had 100-1600ASA?), but maybe the microlenses are an answer to that, with the past sensor-generation these microlenses gave about one stop more sensitivity, but the higher higher fill-rate of the new sensor-generation might reduce their efficiency to 2/3EV, so 80-1250ASA vs. 50-800ASA?

Anyway, the M8 is mostly used with -1/3EV exposure compensation, making the effective ASA-numbers boring again ;-)

 

Have you noticed that they changed the designs of all lens barrels!?

 

The viewfinder field of 96% is really strange, when anybody gets the chance to talk to some Leica-people this should be questioned!?

[dfarkas]

It's the same sensor? That's not what the technical specification in message 1 in this thread says. Leica say that it was developed for the S2.

 

Anyhow, even if it were using the same sensor it will have different firmware, and the image processing software/hardware will also be different.

 

Also, the S2 uses a Kodak sensor with offset microlenses, while the P40+ uses a Dalsa sensor with no microlenses. Both are about the same physical size, number of pixels, and pixel pitch (6um).

 

David

[markowich]

The viewfinder field of 96% is really strange, when anybody gets the chance to talk to some Leica-people this should be questioned!?

 

unbelievable, if this is not a typo on the spec sheet. another dealbreaker.

peter

[rosuna]

A strong competitive new product has to offer the same for a lower price or something more (significant) for the same price.

 

Leica cannot give us the long list of features of the "pro" 35mm cameras (multi point AF, many pictures per second, etc.), so they decided to offer sensor size/image quality instead. This is the main appeal of the S2 to professionals using 35mm format. For MF users this camera brings ergonomics and handling. The price discourages any potential user of 35mm format, and makes difficult any change from Hasselblad or Mamiya users, specially considering these companies have reduced prices for the basic models in order to fight against 35mm format.

 

The S2 brings something more or something different, but the price makes these advantages very expensive. You have to pay a lot for them. So the point is these features are "unique". So Leica is here like a monopolistic offerent, and they set the price. If you want this, you have to pay. This is a dangerous marketing strategy, because in the professional market (including 35mm and MF) competition is very intense, as the agressive prices of Mamiya and Hasselblad suggest.

 

All people see this. Dealers (before and after the S2 was presented), professional photographers (in private conversations)... Price is not a variable you can manipulate freely. Before you develop a new product you have to fix a target market and a price. If you cannot combine the features and price for your target market, then stop it. For me the question is if Leica miscalculated the production, distribution and support costs, or if the original marketing strategy was, from the beginning, to address the upper segment of the MF market, selling uniqueness plus high image quality. That segment of the market is small and will be reduced in size when the 35mm format increases their maximum image size improving also image quality.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Also, the S2 uses a Kodak sensor with offset microlenses, while the P40+ uses a Dalsa sensor with no microlenses. Both are about the same physical size, number of pixels, and pixel pitch (6um).

 

David

 

That is correct and reason I pick the P40+because it is the most comparable sensor to the S2 just slightly bigger I think 7 percent but the same new technology 6 micron sensor. The microlenses which there intention is to really gather light. I actually have them on my back today but my back uses the older 6.8 micron sensor but the same physical size as the P40 but only 31mpx. So my back is really not as good a match sensor wise to the S2. The Hassy 50 is using the same Kodak S2 sensor but much bigger in physical size, reason it is 50 mpx.

 

I should add firmware will not have any effect on the absolute detail of the raw sensor itself but obviously will have everything to do with DR, Tonal Range, Color and of course all menu items and control the algorithms for noise and such. In the S2 case that is all done by Leica internally. No more outside vendor which I think is a really good move on Leica's part is to bring that all in house and depend less on others. Plus any firmware changes could be done much faster and maybe Leica more flexible to get stuff like this more tuned to the needs of the customers. I would suspect this is all new for leica and will carry down the whole line of products. No more dependence like they had in the past that really bogged this stuff down a lot.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Your the MAN, Guy ! LOL

 

Will you be getting advance copies of the M9 specifications, or is your interest purely with the S2 nowadays ?

 

I keep hearing the rumors here and on my forum of the M9. I think if true what most folks are after is a full frame M. My guess maybe 18 or 22 mpx sensor would really shine with all those nice M lenses. This would certainly put a heavy burden on the top end DSLR bodies as far as image quality. Even the M8 today is pretty damn killer. Seems to me it would make sense to use the S2 sensor on this and pretty much what would be needed for a M style with the microlenses and hopefully the cover glass will have the proper amount of IR filtration so no need for filters which would make everyone very happy.

 

If there is a M9 than sure Leica will send any data to me to post or David. Plus i think several people here get this info as well.

 

Leica needs a 4/3rds style beast out there to make lots of sales. Besides i would want one for sure. Nice to have a EP 1 style camera hanging around

[stunsworth]

ILeica needs a 4/3rds style beast out there to make lots of sales. Besides i would want one for sure. Nice to have a EP 1 style camera hanging around

 

Leica don't think so. There are on record as saying that they have no intention of producing such a camera.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yea maybe not the 4/3rd sensor itself but a small body style like the EP1 . Heck maybe even use the M8 sensor and put it in a smaller body with a fixed zoom lens for the under the 1 thousand dollar mark. Have to say my forum with the 4/3rds stuff is busy as heck. There are a ton of folks buying these up like crazy. It's like a cult going on. The Oly EP-1 is selling like crazy for 800 dollars i think. I don't follow too much of this but I did have a G1 for a short while and it was a lot of fun to shoot.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

BTW is there any info on the S2 zoom lens. I think it was supposed to be 30-90 but not sure. What aperture is it and when is the release date for it. Anyone have any idea on this lens.

 

I know the first four lenses coming out in order are 70 and 180 on release followed shortly by the 35 than the 120 macro all before Christmas but after that I am not sure on the zoom.

[glenerrolrd]

Leica don't think so. There are on record as saying that they have no intention of producing such a camera.

 

And you can take what Leica says to the bank? Just like the R10?

 

Panasonic will soon release their 4/3 response to the EP1 and it will have Leica designed lens alternatives . The lower price point alone will insure significant volume. So this will be a Panasonic only offering?

 

Leica/Panasonic offerings have been very successful and Leica versions have been good sellers for a lot of dealers . Leica has made a fair profit on the C/D/V lux product lines.

 

So if you want a Leica you can buy a less than $1000 C/D lux or a M8/9 etc at $8-10K.

Just on the surface this doesn t seem like reasonable product placement?

 

But then maybe Leica hasn t been able to work it out with Panasonic or they have a different format in mind?

 

Sorry for being off topic ...but using what "leica said" doesn t have much credibility.

[stunsworth]

And you can take what Leica says to the bank? Just like the R10?

 

That doesn't mean that they're going to do the opposite of everything they say.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Some little nits I picked up on here

 

Metal focal-plane shutter integrated in body:

1/4000 s to 32 s (B to 120 s), flash sync time:

1/125 s, optional leaf shutter in selected

lenses: 1/500 s to 32 s, flash synch time: All

speeds

 

Looks like 2 minutes on Bulb. Little bugged by only 1/125 of a second for flash sync without the central shutter lens

 

Filter sizes

 

35mm is 82 mm

70 mm is 82mm

120mm is 72mm

180mm is 72mm

 

Some pretty big barrels there

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[delander †]

[quote name=georg;997380

 

The viewfinder field of 96% is really strange' date=' when anybody gets the chance to talk to some Leica-people this should be questioned!?[/quote]

 

I was a bit surprised by that, I'm fond of the 100% view of the 1series canons. But I dont know if the other Phaseone and Hassleblad MF DSLRs have 100% VFs for comparison.

 

Jeff

[glenerrolrd]

That doesn't mean that they're going to do the opposite of everything they say.

 

My point was it does t mean much of anything....its a fairly unreliable source (IMHO). It took a few weeks for the parties attending the meeting even agree on what was said at the meeting. Leica has made a number of "bold statements" that customers relied upon to making buying decisions. "The M8 will be an upgradable platform? the R10 will follow the S2 shortly?

 

It seemed to me you were using Leica s statement as a solid fact to discredit the idea of a 4/3 offering. Neither for or against 4/3 has much evidence behind it.