Philinflash Posted August 8, 2009 Share #1 Posted August 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you believe it is coming, what price tag should Leica affix? New features won't be free; costs will be higher. Certainly, north of the M8's $6K MSRP but less than the S2's $23K. So, maybe around $10K? If that is so, then the upgrade from M8 to M9 will be an expensive proposition, as the secondary market for M8s is not exactly "robust" and can only get worse with an M9 introduced. It seems unlikely that the M9 will open up a vast new market for Leica digital rangefinder cameras but, rather, will be appealing mainly to us who already own m8s. Not a great scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Hi Philinflash, Take a look here How would you price the M9?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dcoombs Posted August 8, 2009 Share #2 Posted August 8, 2009 Hi, Phil, I think it all depends on whether it's full frame or not. If it is, then they can price it "fully" and get the DRF crowd to follow. If not, then it will be accused of being the M8.3 and will have to be priced accordingly. All the other items on the wish list are minor compared to FF, in my reading of the matter. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 8, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 8, 2009 About the same as the M8.2 - mark my words.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted August 9, 2009 About the same as the M8.2 - mark my words.... You mean like the M8.2 was the same as the M8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted August 9, 2009 Share #5 Posted August 9, 2009 Jaap's comment is clear and precise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 9, 2009 Share #6 Posted August 9, 2009 About the same as the M8.2 - mark my words.... Ok, now you're back to your original position. Just seeing if we're paying attention? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted August 9, 2009 Share #7 Posted August 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Same price as M8.2 and slightly dropping. Just like any other digital-/computer stuff. Laptops come and new and stronger ones are at the same price level or slightly lower than the previously. Over a longer period prices drop dramatically as technology becomes less expensive and assembling becomes more effective. An Apple laptop cost about half of that it used to 8-9 year ago - but has many times the power, screen quality, hard disk space, etc as the ones did back then. I think we see the same in cameras. Consumer digitals is about half of what they used to be 8-10 years ago, and the first Nikon dSLR was 2-3 times the Nikon D3 thought the amount of MP has more than ten-doubled in that time span. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted August 9, 2009 Share #8 Posted August 9, 2009 Honestly if I could make the manufacturing work I'd price it the same as the M8 when it kicked off, and I'd keep the 8.2 in the lineup at a reduced price till the stock was gone. Sigh. I want them to gain share not just short-term cash. Can't see how they will do that if the M9 costs more than the M8.2 does now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 9, 2009 Share #9 Posted August 9, 2009 Jaap seems to be getting a line of information from his dealer who is presumably in the know so I'm not going to disagree but Leica has an addiction to raising prices when it can and I'd be surprised if they did not try to charge a premium. Much depends on whether a new camera will be the only camera or whether they will have a cost reduced cropped M8.3 as well as a FF M9. If the M9 is the only game in town, they surely cannot price it higher than an M8.2. Using the Maestro will allow them to take cost out of the camera to offset the (presumably) higher cost of the sensor but there's still other cost in there, such as the brass top cover and the rangefinder, which will be unaffected and not subject to the trends Thorsten is talking about. Here in the UK, Richard Caplan who can usually be relied on to charge the highest prices anywhere are discounting the M8.2 but it's tough to know whether that is down to depressed demand or the camera reaching its sell-by date. In the post 09/09 world, it does make you wonder what an "user" M8 Classic is going to be worth and, like zero residual-value options on a car, how much of a premium the full €1300+ M8u upgrade will command. A tenth of that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 9, 2009 Share #10 Posted August 9, 2009 I didn't get any info from my dealer on the price, so feel free to disagree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 9, 2009 Share #11 Posted August 9, 2009 Ok, now you're back to your original position. Just seeing if we're paying attention? Jeff :D Don't you need accessories and lenses - and a provision in case you are wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted August 9, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 9, 2009 With the S2, no R digital and the rebadged panasonics possibly ending soon. the M9 is the new budget digital solution. At least you don't have to change your lenses each upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 9, 2009 Share #13 Posted August 9, 2009 Honestly if I could make the manufacturing work I'd price it the same as the M8 when it kicked off, and I'd keep the 8.2 in the lineup at a reduced price till the stock was gone. Sigh. I want them to gain share not just short-term cash. Can't see how they will do that if the M9 costs more than the M8.2 does now. Totally agree. The M8.2 is, was and always will be overpriced for what it gave you over the original M8. If there is a newer M coming shortly and they want it to sell, not only to owners/users of M cameras but to new users, they need to price it just about at the original M8 cost. You can't tell me it now take any longer or the parts in it are any more expensive then the ones used in the origina M8. Since they now have a working body type and rangefinder, M8/.2, all that is needed is to cram the newer sensor and electronics in that same body shell. Rangefinder cost are the same, body shell is the same and the electronics should be cheaper. Especially in todays marketplace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 9, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 9, 2009 Using the Maestro will allow them to take cost out of the camera to offset the (presumably) higher cost of the sensor but there's still other cost in there, such as the brass top cover and the rangefinder, which will be unaffected and not subject to the trends Thorsten is talking about. Agreed, I don't think the comparison with Apple laptops is particularly relevant to Leica's pricing strategy. I also agree that the key to pricing the M9 is whether it is full frame or not. If it is, I cannot see Leica charging less for it than Canon do for the 1DS or Nikon for the D3X. This would place it higher than the original RRP of the M8.2 last year. My best guess is around £5000 excluding VAT. Here in the UK, Richard Caplan who can usually be relied on to charge the highest prices anywhere are discounting the M8.2 but it's tough to know whether that is down to depressed demand or the camera reaching its sell-by date. Ffordes seem to have been selling it at that price for some time. Ffordes also had an ex-demo M8.2 for £2699 only a few weeks ago which was available for about a week. Gives you an indication of how soft the demand might be for the M8.2 at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted August 9, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 9, 2009 If you believe it is coming, what price tag should Leica affix? New features won't be free; costs will be higher. Certainly, north of the M8's $6K MSRP but less than the S2's $23K. So, maybe around $10K? If that is so, then the upgrade from M8 to M9 will be an expensive proposition, as the secondary market for M8s is not exactly "robust" and can only get worse with an M9 introduced. It seems unlikely that the M9 will open up a vast new market for Leica digital rangefinder cameras but, rather, will be appealing mainly to us who already own m8s. Not a great scenario. First I would try to keep manuf cost considerations as far away as possible from "Market Driven Pricing" . Second: I would recognise that initial production volumes are likely to be low as they learn how to make the thing. Then after say 6 to 12 months of production they can witch on proper volume production (say 20,000 units per year is what Jaapv said that the M8 achieved in 1st year) Third: I would make the decision "was it feasible "somehow" to manufacture say 50,000 or even 100,000 units per iyear down the road?"....or is this impossible and /or undesirable given Leica labour intensive approach (using highly trained specialist workforce). In my view this is a key issue if they are to become competitive against the Japanese and that means they need volume. I guess this suggests a market driven pricing model that is roughly: £6k for the first six months (Leica enthusiasts and pros will probably pay that) £4K for the next 12 month period (ie same as M8.2 and the same people that buy the M8.2 today will buy the M9 at that price...plus M7 affectionadoes who do not accept the cropping issue....so 20,000 units I guess is achievable in the first twelve months or so) Then the big issue is "what pricing is needed to drive large volumes?" ...I'd suggest £1500 to £2000 would be a good number. This I guess would require a radical rethink of manuf. approach and if there is a need for a low entry cost camera (eg a re engineered M8 that is easier to produce in volume) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted August 9, 2009 Share #16 Posted August 9, 2009 For me around $1,200, for the rest of you $8,000. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted August 9, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 9, 2009 Well, me, I think Jaap's right - if something is introduced I'd think its an "M8.3" - still cropped sensor, minor improvements in various areas, same price as now, but probably not the FF M9 most people seem to be expecting. But we can still dream....... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 9, 2009 Share #18 Posted August 9, 2009 Stefan Daniel did say as recently as Hessenpark (June?) that they were making progress on FF but no date yet so it's dificult to see how that can turn into a real camera in just a few months, so I agree with Sandy. I think it will be a cropped camera, new lower noise sensor, high speed electronics, maybe the IR problem cracked? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted August 9, 2009 Share #19 Posted August 9, 2009 If it's FF, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw an announcement, but no immediate release. It seems possible that the slowing sales of the M8 and the M8.2 are not due to an "end of model" termination of production, but rather a full exploitation of the rangefinder market -- that is, they've pretty much sold what they're going to sell. If that's the case, they would hold onto the market (and not lose any large number of sales) by promising a further development of the M line...whenever that might come. If they *have* fully exploited the current M market, an M8.3 wouldn't make much sense. Most people who have an M8 or an M8.2 won't pay yet another $6,000 for more minor tweaks, just as the 8.2 didn't create any great excitement. If the M9 is full frame, I would expect Leica to charge anything up to $8,000, the release price of the D3x and the 1DsIII, and soon, the 1DsIV. But, as Jaap says, it could be in the 8.2 range -- that would be up to Leica's marketing people, and I'm sure they will try to price it according to the best projections for maximizing return. There might even be an informal two-tier system - a high initial price for the chumps (excuse me, I meant "early adopters") followed by a planned discounting scheme beginning six or eight months later... JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 9, 2009 Share #20 Posted August 9, 2009 If they *have* fully exploited the current M market, an M8.3 wouldn't make much sense. Most people who have an M8 or an M8.2 won't pay yet another $6,000 for more minor tweaks, just as the 8.2 didn't create any great excitement.JC Seems to me that would depend on what the changes were. I think many current M8/8.2 users would consider better low light performance, for example...M8.2 didn't offer M8 users any real internal camera differences. And, the cost would only be incremental, assuming users traded for, rather than added, a new camera. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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