Peter Natscher Posted July 31, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Leica Forum! I'm still searching for a new M7 after much research on the internet. I finally went to my local camera store which sells all Leica products to see and hold various camera bodies -- namely, a few used and a demo M7, and a new MP for comparison. I spent time comparing the views through the eyepiece of these seven camera bodies with no lens attached. Back and forth I went carefully paying attention to how the focusing patch looked in every camera body. What a surprise! I'm glad I did this tedious procedure because it was very enlightening. The focusing patch in the older M7's exhibited a annoying amount of flare while the new MP and the new demo M7 (serial 322xxxxx) showed very little flare. The older M7's all had serial numbers around 277xxxxx and 278xxxx. I was told that the MP was new. I was sitting and casually pointing the camera bodies to a darker area of the camera store and paying attention to the patch while the bright sunlit store's window was hitting the camera from the left side. This caused the flare in some of the M7's patches. I could only get rid of most of the flare with exact centering of my eye in these older M7's . In the new MP and new demo M7, I didn't need to center my eye to enjoy a flare-free patch. The view in these two newer bodies was more contrasty than in the older M7's. This experiment could only have been done visiting a camera store and experimenting with the older and newer M7's and MP all at once to see the differences in the patches. No amount of web browsing could of given me this important information. Unfortunately, I declined purchasing my sought-after M7 at this store since they had no newer M7 with a better viewfinder than the older M7's. After this experiment, I now believe I want a newer M7 with the improved viewfinder and not an older one. There was a big difference in what I saw. After talking by phone to many camera stores with used M7 stock, I now believe that there are a lot of older (pre-288xxxxx) M7's for sale in these camera stores. Many are in mint condition externally and have a fine appearance but they have inferior focusing patches from pre-MP days. If I place an order on the web for a "new in the box" M7, how new is it really? A M7 "new in the box" could still be a pre-MP upgrade model that's been in storage for many years. So, how do you know how new an M7 you're getting by placing an order without inspecting it first?:confused: Thanks, Peter Natscher Monterey, California Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Hi Peter Natscher, Take a look here Comparing Viewfinders in used, new M7's and an MP. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sepiareverb Posted July 31, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 31, 2009 Confirm the serial number with the seller before buying, or at the very least be sure you have a return privilege. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermannhkg Posted August 1, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 1, 2009 Confirm the serial number with the seller before buying, or at the very least be sure you have a return privilege. Agreed completely, the serial number is your only confirmation. Good luck in your hunt ! Regards, Hermann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2009 Share #4 Posted August 1, 2009 A second hand M7 may have had its finder updated to the MP one, so the SN is not a definitive answer. If you know the SN, you can ask Solms whether the camera has been updated. They will have a record. M7s with the new finder also have the fact written on the box - which will have the same SN as the camera. Unless someone has been messing around with boxes... I have an older M7 and have never had a problem with the finder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted August 1, 2009 Share #5 Posted August 1, 2009 Buy an MP, and carry that with you when you go to buy, then you can compare. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Natscher Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted August 1, 2009 I'm sure all are happy with their M7's regardless of how old they are and whether or not they have the updated finder. You get used to and learn to function quickly what you use regularly. As a novice and with no experience with M7's, and in my observations between these various M7's, I did noticed enough of a difference for me to now want only a new M7. I'd go for the MP immediately but am still unsure if I'd like the M7's automation. Maybe I should buy an MP (a gorgeous camera!) and see how I like basic photography with no bells and whistles? I've been totally immersed in Nikon DSLR photography using film and digital for ten years. I did enjoy using a smallish Nikon FM2 and AIS prime. The MP has a dead-on meter and beautiful build. Thanks, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Natscher Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted August 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I forgot to mention that I primarily shoot scenic, so maybe the M7's automation would not be needed for my type of photography. I'm not a journalist requiring a quick response to get the shot. I usually have time to set up a scene. The MP with it great viewfinder would work well for me. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Natscher Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted August 1, 2009 Also a note: All MP's have the same quality viewfinder, and so I wouldn't need to check the serial number of an MP, unlike a M7. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maddoc2003jp Posted August 1, 2009 Share #9 Posted August 1, 2009 Well if you shoot scenic you will never run in trouble with VF flare ... I have an older M7 (SN 2777xxx), that has been upgraded to the newer MP VF and also to the optical DX reader but the VF has still less contrast that of my trusty M4-P. BTW, the SN from which Leica started to implement the new improved MP VF into the M7 (and also the optical DX reader) is said to be around 2885xxx. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandokan Posted August 1, 2009 Share #10 Posted August 1, 2009 Why dont you buy the demo M7 in your local dealer? The slight extra money you pay him for it will be more than made up in the service and help and advice you get from him later. Saying that, I got an M7 and only read about the better finder in the MP later. I sent my camera back to Leica through my dealer and it was upgraded to the newer finder for free. Ravi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted August 1, 2009 Share #11 Posted August 1, 2009 The first batch or two of the M7 still used the M6ttl style rangefinder unit, without a condenser that prevents flaring. The condenser was removed with the release of the M4-2, as a cost cutting measure and did not return until the M7/MP. Leica offers an upgrade for M6/M6tt/M7 bodies. In the US shops like DAG or Golden Touch can do this upgrade for between $150 - $250. My M7 is from the first batch and had the flare problem. I had the M7 and my M6ttl upgraded with the condenser by Sherry Krauter at Golden Touch. The upgrade was well worth the money. I agree that the MP may be a better choice for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alun Posted August 10, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 10, 2009 Viewfinder flare in the non-MP finder versions of M7s and M6s is rather over-stated, I think. My M7, which has been upgraded by Leica, is a touch brighter and somewhat less flare-prone than my M6 (which hasn't been upgraded) but let's be honest, these are pretty marginal differences. It's not as if the pre-MP finder was simply duff, after all. The flaring is more noticeable (to me, anyway) in low light with oblique light in the frame or in very strong oblique light -- actually, in the kind of lighting that is in any case most chalenging to shoot in. I bet for mainly scenic photography the difference would be largely immaterial. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted August 10, 2009 Share #13 Posted August 10, 2009 Viewfinder flare in the non-MP finder versions of M7s and M6s is rather over-stated, I think. My M7, which has been upgraded by Leica, is a touch brighter and somewhat less flare-prone than my M6 (which hasn't been upgraded) but let's be honest, these are pretty marginal differences. It's not as if the pre-MP finder was simply duff, after all. The flaring is more noticeable (to me, anyway) in low light with oblique light in the frame or in very strong oblique light -- actually, in the kind of lighting that is in any case most chalenging to shoot in. I bet for mainly scenic photography the difference would be largely immaterial. Fully in agreement. I also have an M7 upgraded by Leica New Jersey and an original M6 from 1986 - third year of its production. The difference in the finders is negligible and I really have to try hard to make the M6 finder 'flare'. The flare issue is truly over rated. After all - the M6 along with the M3 had the longest production run of any Leica camera; surely if the finder was 'so bad', the issue would have come up a lot earlier than it did........ Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgray Posted August 10, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 10, 2009 My M6 flares all the time. Then again, I use it indoors a lot, and it always seems to happen there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geotrupede Posted August 10, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 10, 2009 I had a M6TTL 0.85 and I now have a .72. The .85 had more flare issues, significantly more. The .72 is fine, some flare but not too much for the type of lighting I shoot in. Never tried the M3. G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 11, 2009 Share #16 Posted August 11, 2009 yes, the 0.85 pre Mp is a pig with bright oblique light. never used the 0.72. All MP finders are great and the M3 finder has the clearest patch of all no matter what light as in it does not lose any contrast no matter what. A tiny bit of contrast can be lost in the MP finder but not enough to matter in the slightest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted August 13, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 13, 2009 Fully in agreement. I also have an M7 upgraded by Leica New Jersey and an original M6 from 1986 - third year of its production. The difference in the finders is negligible and I really have to try hard to make the M6 finder 'flare'. The flare issue is truly over rated. After all - the M6 along with the M3 had the longest production run of any Leica camera; surely if the finder was 'so bad', the issue would have come up a lot earlier than it did........ Best, Jan Sorry, but it's hardly a trivial issue and yes, it is astonishing that Leica let the problem fester for such a long time. Shooters complained about the flare for almost 20 years, but unfortunately Leica chose to do nothing about it for most of that time. But then again the management for most of that period was less than competent and IMO rather clueless about the business they were in. When Leica finally did offer the upgrade their service department and places like DAG and Golden Touch were swamped with orders for about 2 years. Without the upgrade any M6/M6ttl or early M7 I have ever seen will flare quite easily, if there is a light source near the 1 or 2 o'clock position. Shooting in sunny locations like southern California is a pain, as can be working indoors with bright lights at certain angles. High magnification bodies (.85) in particular suffer from flare (M6/M6ttl/early M7) The flare upgrade eliminates the problem in 99% of situations and depending on what version on the RF your camera has may noticeably increase the brightness of the framelines. The upgrade is almost mandatory if you want to be able to use the camera properly or in more than a very casual manner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alun Posted August 13, 2009 Share #18 Posted August 13, 2009 Sorry, but it's hardly a trivial issue and yes, it is astonishing that Leica let the problem fester for such a long time.... The upgrade is almost mandatory if you want to be able to use the camera properly or in more than a very casual manner. You see, thrid, *that's* what I mean by over-stated. Frame for frame, there have probably been more great pictures taken by more great photographers using M6 variants during the almost twenty years of its production cycle than any other camera. And yet it requires a finder upgrade if it is to be used in more than a "casual manner"? But then those photographers were probably concentrating just a bit more on subject, content, timing etc and a bit less on the occasional finder flare... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 13, 2009 Share #19 Posted August 13, 2009 The first batch or two of the M7 still used the M6ttl style rangefinder unit, without a condenser that prevents flaring. The condenser was removed with the release of the M4-2, as a cost cutting measure and did not return until the M7/MP. Not cost cutting, it was just the fashion for Flares at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 13, 2009 Share #20 Posted August 13, 2009 On the occasional times when I experienced flare on my M6 - and I used it a lot - I found that it could often be made to disappear by moving the eye a little when looking through the viewfinder. I certainly never felt that it was any kind of fatal flaw in the camera, just a very minor, very occasional issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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