Guest BigSplash Posted July 16, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I keep hearing that Leica is a small company unable to take on the mighty Japanese so I was surprised that: > Leica currently offer 22 lenses in the range wide angle to 135mm compared to Canon's 17 prime focus lenses in this range. > Leica seem to have higher aperture lens options in the wide to 50mm range where the standard lens is f2.8 at Canon. > Canon do not offer a 75mm at all. The bad news is that: > Leica have no 14mm, 15mm (Fisheye)...the nearest equivalent being the 18mm ! I am now intrigued about what is the Leica positioning strategy with respect to the needs of typical Leica users, and in particular myself. > I guess a pro would just buy the lot. (all 22 lenses) > A new Leica fan would buy the Summarit series of lenses (35mm, 50mm, 75mm, and 90mm all at f2.5) which would be a cost effective entry solution. > Others would consider the 16mm/18mm/ 21mm Tri Elmar but to my eyes having read a separate thread this is used by most people as a 16mm lens with difficulties to fit the filter. ..so using a prime focus 18mm is likely to yield better pictures, is easier to use, is physically smaller...and is £800 cheaper. [The old TriElmar (28mm / 35mm /50mm) which I have makes much more sense in my view] This £800 saving could go towards buying a 15mm from Voigtlander (£400) or at somewhere between £2500 and £3000 a Zeiss lens I am looking at upgarding my lenses to the new Asph. and I need a kit for travel, tourism and family photos .....This suggests: > 18mm Super Elmar Asph........Yes for dramatic wide angle shots > 21mm (f1.4) ..........................Yes for wide angle at large aperture (M8 = 24mm) > 21mm (f2.8).......................... No if f1.4mm is available > 24mm .(f1.4 and f3.8).............No > 28mm..(f2 and ff2.8)...............Maybe as this offers a standard wide angle on M8 (35mm) > 35mm.(f1.4)............................Yes, this effectively is a 50mm large aperture standard lens on M8 > 35mm (2.0, 2.5).......................No if f1.4 is available >50mm (f0.95)..........................Yes....superb low light lens. This has to be a huge differentiator for the Leica offering overall. I have the f1.0 Noctilux and it is fantastic. > 50mm (f1.4, f2.0, f2.5) ............No if Noctilux is available > 75mm (f2.0)............................Yes. This is a great portrait lens as the depth of field is just right at 75mm on an M6 and 90mm on M8. I have the older version but people suggest that the ASPH is much better. > 75mm (f2.5).............................No if f2.0 is available. > 90mm (f2)................................Maybe...it is an APO type lens and expensive so I guess is a superb lens, but 135mm on the M8 does not seem very useful as I rarely used my 135mm on the M6 as it was not good for portraits due to the tight depth of field, and it is not a serious telephoto either. >90mm (f2.5 and f4, and f4 Macro set)...No.... > 135mm (f3.4)...........................Another APO lens that is reputed to have superb optics. However on an M8 it is about 180mm and how you use that on a range finder camera is I guess a challenge. [it is intriguing that Leica do not offer what undoubtedly is a superb optic with the viewing attachment they once offered for the 135mm (f2.8mm) Elmarit ...]. I would welcome any feedback on my comments above and what makes sens for the type of photography I have in mind. It is a pity that Leica do not have the super wide angle lenses and maybe the 15mm Zeiss makes sense Finally does anyone have any idea what is Leica's positioning strategy of all these lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Leica M lens - current offering. What should I buy?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted July 16, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 16, 2009 Are these all to be used on an M8, or on a film M? I can't work out from your post above which lenses you already own, which ones you are thinking about selling, nor what type of photography you want to do with the lens(es). I also can't work out what the different colours in your post mean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted July 16, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 16, 2009 > I guess a pro would just buy the lot. (all 22 lenses) You couldn't be more wrong on that count. A pro knows what he or she need to do a job and would go out of business very fast after purchasing the entire catalogue of Leica glass. Many amateur photographers (or camera collectors) spend fortunes making sure they have every focal length covered from super-wide to long, instead of learning how to properly use a few lenses well. There's nothing wrong with this if it makes you happy, of course, but it may not be the smartest business decision if you're a pro, and some would argue it's not good for the quality of your work either. Leica's positioning seems to be to offer very fast and high quality optics in the range where the M camera operates. They also offer some more compact and lower-cost options when lens speed isn't a high priority. I wonder if the lack of super-wide glass from Leica may suggest that they do plan (or hope!) to offer a full-frame digital camera in the next few years. Remember, if we go back to a full-frame world 18mm is pretty wide and 21 would be wide enough for many photographers. Personally, as a professional documentary photographer, my working kit is currently two M8s, a 24 Summilux and 50 Summilux Pre-Asph. I have some other lenses I use for special circumstances and backup, and some I'm saving since I know I'll use them again once a FF camera comes out, but I have been doing over 90 percent of my work with this basic two-lens kit and I couldn't be happier with my setup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 16, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 16, 2009 Are these all to be used on an M8, or on a film M? I can't work out from your post above which lenses you already own, nor what type of photography you want to do with the lens(es) Andy I want as noted above "a kit for travel, tourism and family photos ....." For me that means landscapes, city sights, portraits, family photos, flowers, sailing, Bar B Q types of shots. I am especially concerned that the older lenses are not as deep in colour rendering as the new ones in very bright sunlight conditions as noted in my 18mm v tri elmar thread. Possibly this is my imagination..... it does seem to vary somewhat from the 21mm super angulon (bought in 1977) to Tri Elmar (28 /35 / 50) bought 2005. I own today 21mm (f3.4), 35mm (f2), 50mm (f2), 50mm (f1), 75mm (f1.4), 90mm (f2), 135mm (f4) Tr Elmar (28mm / 35mm / 50mm)...plus various Telyt and Viso lenses. The 75mm is 2000 vintage and the others were bought in 1977 I plan to use the lenses mostly (90% of the time) on my M8 although will occassionally use my M6. In theory I guess with a collection of lenses as per above I am well equipped for most things.....certainy these were lenses that delivered excellent results when I used film. That said I am advised that the new asph lenses are breathtaking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 16, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 16, 2009 Buy a 35 ASPH and sell all the rest, for use on the M6, and a 28 ASPH for use on the M8. You're never going to carry all that lot on holiday with you anyway, and, in my experience of holiday shots, the less kit, the better. Don't be fooled by the "latest is greatest" mantra, either (although Leica and your dealer will love you). For example, a 50 Summicron from the 1970s is still one of the best 50mm lenses ever made, and none of your collection are anything less than excellent. I'd spend the money on the travel, if I were you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 16, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 16, 2009 Your theme would need volumes of answers and discussions... so I limit myself to some observations: - I doubt a pro would afford the 22 total lenses: Leica, for pros, is a tool for some SPECIFIC task (Zoomed DSLR are much better for a lot of tasks), and they typically tend to have a limited number of lenses whose behavior they know well, to take the best from them depending on the job; don't forget that a pro has to LIVE on his works... gear is an investiment that must have a return: try the sum of the 22 and evaluate the possible return . - To speak of "positioning strategy" for Leica is imho a sort of exaggeration : given that they are LINKED to a Viewfinder with frames, they are very limited in terms of "focals strategy" : they cannot make zooms, they cannot make "lateral"moves like, for instance a 40 or a 100: to me, their strategy is simply to offer a number of variants in term of max aperture around their historical focals, priced accordingly. In strong WAs (<24) they have made a significant move towards top luminosity with the Summiluxes, and towards extreme WA with WATE and 18 and we have read, in the forum, many voices about the fact that something more would be welcome (14-15) : I think that for something more we have to wait for the possible development of a 24x36 DRF. About teles, is clear that they think that M line is NOT targeted to tele users... I am one of the people who would appreciate a new goggled 135, but I think we are not so many to share this sentiment. - A Leica newcomer could indeed appreciate the "right" price of the Summarits (and me, not a newcomer, happily own a 75 of this breed), but I doubt that one would buy the complete series... I suspect that their initial marketing campaign on Summarits (2 or 3 together at reduced price) proved unsuccesful: a Summarit, for the newcomer, is "the lens to start"or (less probable) "the light set to start" (35+75 or 50+90): the appeal of the luminous lenses is strong when one start to appreciate the typical Leica photography (wide aperture, selective focus). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 16, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 16, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You couldn't be more wrong on that count. A pro knows what he or she need to do a job and would go out of business very fast after purchasing the entire catalogue of Leica glass. Many amateur photographers (or camera collectors) spend fortunes making sure they have every focal length covered from super-wide to long, instead of learning how to properly use a few lenses well. There's nothing wrong with this if it makes you happy, of course, but it may not be the smartest business decision if you're a pro, and some would argue it's not good for the quality of your work either. Leica's positioning seems to be to offer very fast and high quality optics in the range where the M camera operates. They also offer some more compact and lower-cost options when lens speed isn't a high priority. I wonder if the lack of super-wide glass from Leica may suggest that they do plan (or hope!) to offer a full-frame digital camera in the next few years. Remember, if we go back to a full-frame world 18mm is pretty wide and 21 would be wide enough for many photographers. Personally, as a professional documentary photographer, my working kit is currently two M8s, a 24 Summilux and 50 Summilux Pre-Asph. I have some other lenses I use for special circumstances and backup, and some I'm saving since I know I'll use them again once a FF camera comes out, but I have been doing over 90 percent of my work with this basic two-lens kit and I couldn't be happier with my setup. I was expecting a comment on the "commercial viability of buying the lot", and I can see your point. That said it seems that there are pros that enjoy a full M kit and "R" kit and Canon's / Nikon equipment also. I actually agree with you about keeping it simple and the need to get comfortable with the character of each lens. I have 12 lenses (including Viso lenses) but I do have my favourites for what I use as an amateur ...for the M6 this was the 21mm, 35mm and 90mm...(more recently I use the 75mm instead of the 90mm). The other 9 lenses have had little use in reality but it keeps me happy....at least I cannot blame poor shots due to lack of equipment I guess. I have only just bought the M8 and am getting used to the crop factor. I am now trying to relearn my photographic technique and the character of each lens by actually forcing myself to use just one lens for a few days at a time during this holiday period. I had not considered your point about when FF is available the 18mm will be adequate as the super wide angle. ..it does make sense however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 16, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 16, 2009 Buy a 35 ASPH and sell all the rest, for use on the M6, and a 28 ASPH for use on the M8. You're never going to carry all that lot on holiday with you anyway, and, in my experience of holiday shots, the less kit, the better. Don't be fooled by the "latest is greatest" mantra, either (although Leica and your dealer will love you). For example, a 50 Summicron from the 1970s is still one of the best 50mm lenses ever made, and none of your collection are anything less than excellent. I'd spend the money on the travel, if I were you. Andy I can see your point. I have no plan to sell my Leica kit I have built it up over years and I have a deep rooted affection for it. I also believe that the lenses such as 50mm summicron have been admired through the ages and do give superb results. Your comment about 35mm ASPH, and 28mm ASPH is well taken ...I am surprsied that you did not mention 75mm f2 ASPH also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted July 16, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 16, 2009 I can see this turning into a looooong thread;) Not sure I understand your blue notes. For example, does your comment on the 50's mean that you wouldn't buy a 50 Lux because the Nocti 0.95 is available? Also, is budget a concern? A quick observation on the 75's: IMHO, the 75 f/1.4 is an amazing lens (same optical design as your Nocti) and so is the 75 f/2 - but they render quite differently, at least to my eyes. The rendering of the Summarit 75 f/2.5 is - again, to my eyes - very close to that of the 75 F/2, and may therefore be a cheaper option if you are after a sharper, more contrasty look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 16, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 16, 2009 For me the prime selection criterion would be a sensible coverage of focal lengths, for instance I find 35mm 'too close' to 28 and 50 mm, a few steps back or foreward will cover the range. So based on this I would propose (increments of about 2 and about 1.5): 1) 18, 28, 50, 90, 135 2) 15, 24, 35, 50, 75 (135) You do not need the whole collection. For me 15, 28, 50, 90, 135 would be the aim but I am not in a hurry. I could buy all 22 if I wanted to but the management (SWHTBO) would object. Moreover it does not make sense at all. In addition the older lenses are more than good enough compared to most other stuff. A 35mm summaron from 1960 or so blows 98% of present optics out of the sky in terms of "atmosphere" and "definition" (OK,OK whatever that may mean I am struggling for words here). That was the old stuff, new offerings from Leica are better technically but not necessarily artistically. If you have an "old" noctilux - keep it and make the most of it's unique character. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 16, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 16, 2009 Frank - forget what everyone else is advising. Knock yourself out - go buy the whole bunch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 17, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 17, 2009 Leica's current lens portfolio is getting quite crowded and they must be reaching the point where new lenses don't increase sales that much, they simply divert sales from other lenses. Good to have the choice though. For my money, 50s are a bit long on the M8 and the most obvious alternatives - 28 and 35 - are handicapped by the 35mm Summilux's focus shift and no fast 28mm. The great new 21/24 Summiluxes and the Noctilux on either side have made this hole - lack of a fast "normal" lens - all the more apparent. You can definitely have too many lenses and I like to pick three to use for a while, then come back and change. Current selection: 24/1.4, 50/1.4 and 90/2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotomiguel Posted July 17, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 17, 2009 Current selection: 24/1.4, 50/1.4 and 90/2. Oh my God! How nice! If I were a rich man! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 17, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 17, 2009 Yes, but you have the weather... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 17, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 17, 2009 I can see this turning into a looooong thread;) Not sure I understand your blue notes. For example, does your comment on the 50's mean that you wouldn't buy a 50 Lux because the Nocti 0.95 is available? Also, is budget a concern? A quick observation on the 75's: IMHO, the 75 f/1.4 is an amazing lens (same optical design as your Nocti) and so is the 75 f/2 - but they render quite differently, at least to my eyes. The rendering of the Summarit 75 f/2.5 is - again, to my eyes - very close to that of the 75 F/2, and may therefore be a cheaper option if you are after a sharper, more contrasty look. Budget is not a concern at this point. My aim is to look at a money no object "Best set" while keeping my old glass.....Then given this reference point I shall probably try to get the items bit by bit and hopefully if possible secondhand. I am happy with my Noctilux f1 and would need considerable persuasion to buy the 0.95, likewise I am happy with my 50's designed Summicron 50mm. I agree that the 75 / f1.4 is a fabulous lens and I like the character of the photos it seems to give. That said I notice that Brett in his LFI wedding photos seems to like the new 75mm and 21mm ASPH lenses as the two he uses as standard lenses with great results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted July 17, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 17, 2009 Budget is not a concern at this point. My aim is to look at a money no object "Best set" while keeping my old glass.....Then given this reference point I shall probably try to get the items bit by bit and hopefully if possible secondhand. I am happy with my Noctilux f1 and would need considerable persuasion to buy the 0.95, likewise I am happy with my 50's designed Summicron 50mm. I agree that the 75 / f1.4 is a fabulous lens and I like the character of the photos it seems to give. That said I notice that Brett in his LFI wedding photos seems to like the new 75mm and 21mm ASPH lenses as the two he uses as standard lenses with great results. I've shot my last 10 weddings on a 50mm only... for my other work I favour the 75mm APO. For me the type of work = choice of lens(es)... how you see the world = your favourite lens(es) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 17, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 17, 2009 Frank - you're not listening to me are you? You know you want all of them. Remember life's short. Go on - just do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted July 17, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 17, 2009 Budget is not a concern at this point. My aim is to look at a money no object "Best set" while keeping my old glass.....Then given this reference point I shall probably try to get the items bit by bit and hopefully if possible secondhand. I am happy with my Noctilux f1 and would need considerable persuasion to buy the 0.95, likewise I am happy with my 50's designed Summicron 50mm. I agree that the 75 / f1.4 is a fabulous lens and I like the character of the photos it seems to give. That said I notice that Brett in his LFI wedding photos seems to like the new 75mm and 21mm ASPH lenses as the two he uses as standard lenses with great results. Understand what you mean, but I'm with Noah on this one: better to learn how to better use the lenses you have than buying new ones in the hope that they'll dramatically improve your photography. I'm one of those affected by GAS, and bought way too many lenses before I (only recently, alas...) realised that the "latest and greatest" provided only marginal technical improvement and that in some cases I got photos with more character from older glass. This may (or may not) change if and when a FF sensor is available and the technical limitations of some of the older glass become more exposed by the unforgiving digital technology. One of the things many of us here seem to like about the rangefinder experience is that it brings us back to the basics of photography - IMHO, this should apply to gear as well. Having said all that, the 21/1.4 is indeed a hell of a lens;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 17, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 17, 2009 Leica's current lens portfolio is getting quite crowded and they must be reaching the point where new lenses don't increase sales that much, they simply divert sales from other lenses. Good to have the choice though. For my money, 50s are a bit long on the M8 and the most obvious alternatives - 28 and 35 - are handicapped by the 35mm Summilux's focus shift and no fast 28mm. The great new 21/24 Summiluxes and the Noctilux on either side have made this hole - lack of a fast "normal" lens - all the more apparent. You can definitely have too many lenses and I like to pick three to use for a while, then come back and change. Current selection: 24/1.4, 50/1.4 and 90/2. I think you are correct about the crowded range of new Leica lenses, also whatever is chosen today may be incorrect if a FF M9 is released in the next year. > What is the problem with the 35mm focus shift...I do not understand? > Do you not feel that the 90mm on a M8 ( ie it is effectively a 135mm) is difficult to frame and focus...especially at say 4 to 5 metres from the subject? What kind of shots do you use the 90mm (135mm) for ......in my view it is on a M8 not very good for portrait (due to depth of field) and not very good as a telephoto either. I used to love my 90mm (f2) 1980 vintage lens on my M6 for portraits but on a M8 I am less enthusiastic. > Do you think that my Noctilux (f1) can be used as a standard lens...my view is yes. I actually think the character of this lens is great for available light photos but is great at f2, f4 also Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 17, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 17, 2009 I notice the considerations do not take weight and volume into account. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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