rob_x2004 Posted June 28, 2009 Share #21 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So hang on, who pays for passport warranty? Does the customer pay extra for it? Does Leica charge the wholesaler retailer extra for it? Is it a gift from Leica to some areas and not to others and therefore covered by all Leica purchases? Theres a cost to be covered somewhere. Â Car dealers trade stock all the time or at least they do out here. Yes we can get a white one by tomorrow often means it comes from stock sitting out of city with someone not even in the franchise. Doesnt make the car second hand. Â I keep seeing this "Grey Market" claim. If something hasnt been imported legally how come customs arent involved? How come Leica doesnt do something about it. Surely all the on line mail order sellers of new Leica kit arent authorised Leica dealers but they have little trouble getting new stock. Â The whole passport thing is a bit baffling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 Hi rob_x2004, Take a look here Warning about The Classic Camera shop in London. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
spylaw4 Posted June 28, 2009 Share #22 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Quote from Red Dot Camera website - "What does a passport actually mean? Sometimes we all have an accident and drop our camera, should this happen within 2 years Leica UK Ltd will either repair your camera or replace it with a new one free of charge. You will only get this if you have purchased a official UK product and not one that has been imported from abroad." (i.e. one that has been sourced from Leica UK). As I understand it this is an additional "all-risks" type of insurance offered by Leica UK within the standard UK retail price, for added peace of mind. Frankly it matters not a jot to the purchaser what the confidential financial arrangement is between UK retailer and Leica UK. Recently I believe it has been limited to purchases made by UK residents only. I will get all this confirmed on Monday. The whole grey market thing does I suppose depend on "dodgy" deals and much lower profit margins. As far as the Customs are concerned - you win some, you lose some they don't (apparently) catch everything especially if it's done as a casual import. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander †Posted June 28, 2009 Share #23  Posted June 28, 2009 Thanks for this thread. I often go past their shop.  Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted June 28, 2009 Share #24 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Quote from Red Dot .... ect. Well it mattered to the OP that he doesnt have it. He was aware that it existed, and for whatever reason accepted it wasnt avilable on the M8 he was buying, for price whatever, but didnt know enough about the passport situation to know that it varied store to store No doubt did his homework in several places but I guess you need to be savvy enough to ask what the dealers supply arrangements are for kit, and whether he can actually prove he is entitled to sell kit at whatever level of protection. Bit of a circus really. Seems Frank would have been out of luck with passport, not being a resident, so it didnt do him any good to walk away on the basis of Authorised/Passport. Walking away on the basis that they got up his nose is altogether another issue. Ehh ... anyway no one died or got ripped off, so I guess its just a chew the fat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 28, 2009 Share #25  Posted June 28, 2009 I have only one thing to say:  City of Westminster  If the OP is sufficiently aggrieved to post his concerns here, then he should take the next step, do the right thing and contact these people. They will decide what is right or wrong and take action accordingly.  Regards,  Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 28, 2009 Share #26  Posted June 28, 2009 Some time ago I was involved in a small claims court action against a dealer (not my action - a friend's, its a long story) who had misrepresented a 'grey' import as being an official import and therefore holding UK warranty from the manufacturer (it was a 'pro' product and therefore the warranty and UK importer back up was an important part of the original deal). The dealer lost and had to make a full refund plus costs plus (unusually I suspect) some compensation.  Whilst this case sounds as though its is not dis-similar in some ways. I would say that it could well be interpreted as misrepresentation since the £500 'Leica' discount was 'given' - ie. it may have been intended to look as though it qualified for the 'official' Leica £500 cash back, but this of course is a legal point which would no doubt be subject to legal argument. Personally though, in such a situation, I would take the camera back and demand a full refund simply because I would not be happy with any sort of warranty from a dealer who was, at the very least, not providing the full and approriate facts over his relationship with the official importer (warranty work may therefore no be carried out by Leica and this would concern me). I would apply this to ANY product. Its not about being satisfied with the goods, its about honesty in trading and if I wanted to buy a 'grey' import then I would be satisfied about its purchase if having bought it.  PS. I did drop my M8 (first camera I've dropped in 25 years - faulty latch on a camera bag - pure accident) and it was fully repaired under the passport scheme and issued with 12 months warranty from the repair date). It is worth having IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 28, 2009 Share #27 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I keep seeing this "Grey Market" claim. If something hasnt been imported legally how come customs arent involved? Â If it's been imported from another EU country then there's no need for them to be involved. It has been imported legally, but Leica wont provide passport waranty for grey imports. Â If CC gave the impression that the M8 in the UK doesn't have passport warranty, then they were misleading the customer. I'm guessing they would hve phrased it in such a way as to be ambiguous as to whether that was the case, or whether it just applies to sales from them. What would be interesting would be for someone to challenge them directly and ask if M8s in the UK were covered by the passport warranty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted June 28, 2009 Share #28 Â Posted June 28, 2009 PS. I did drop my M8 (first camera I've dropped in 25 years - faulty latch on a camera bag - pure accident) and it was fully repaired under the passport scheme and issued with 12 months warranty from the repair date). It is worth having IMHO. Totally agree! The passport is a BIG deal and Leica are definitely ahead here in terms of customer satisfaction. It is even transferable so if you ever intend to sell, your buyer may ask for it as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 28, 2009 Share #29 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Pete, things like that happen often. A dealer won't have an item in stock and looks for another dealer who does and has the item shipped to him for sale. I don't see items moving between importers an/or dealers as making an item second hand. Once it's been sold as retail and used by the purchaser that's another thing. ... Steve, Â On reflection I agree with you. Â But if retailing is selling directly to the consumer then the line between dealer and consumer can become very blurry ("grey"? ) when moving between official Leica dealers and unscrupulous dealers or savvy consumers. For example, it's very difficult to identify who's a dealer and who's not because, afaik, there's no central body who registers bona fide dealers - I'm not particularly referring to Leica dealers here. So, if you've ever managed to buy goods at trade price it (I suspect) indicates a dealer-to-dealer transaction but would that then entitle you to sell that to someone else as new goods? Clearly if you were a consumer you wouldn't be entitled. Â I wonder how the law sees it? (If only Vinay were here he'd know because he claimed to be variously: a gastroenterologist, a lawyer, a Leica connoisseur, right, a CEO, Superman etc ... ) Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander †Posted June 28, 2009 Share #30  Posted June 28, 2009 Leica UK use the term 'authorised'. Classic Camera are not in Leica UKs list of authorised dealers. Does that automatically mean that the new cameras they sell are therefore grey imports? I notice they dont offer any of the recent Leica products such as the M8.2 or the new lenses.  I assume that selling grey imports is not breaking any law, is it not simply matter of whether its is up to the buyer to determine if the goods are grey or the seller to make that clear?    Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 28, 2009 Share #31 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Jeff, it hinges on whether or not Leica UK sell to dealers that aren't authorised - or to put it another way unauthorised dealers. I suspect they don't, but that's just a guess on my part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 28, 2009 Share #32  Posted June 28, 2009 Certainly in the UK, any new product, not sold through an authorised dealer (list on Leica's site) is grey  if you want proper Lrica support, you have to buy through the official channels  Same with any similar product, such as Omega or Rolex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 28, 2009 Share #33 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Don't forget, also, that Leica UK are independent of Leica Camera AG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander †Posted June 28, 2009 Share #34  Posted June 28, 2009 It could be that Classic Camera have stock from the period when they were authorised Leica dealers.  Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 28, 2009 Share #35 Â Posted June 28, 2009 ...We were sold a new M8 body and on request given the cashback deal that Leica were offering...The camera seems fine and we do the one-year EU warranty, and we did get a discount, so things could be worse... So you got a cashback plus a discount did you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 28, 2009 Share #36  Posted June 28, 2009 I have only one thing to say: City of Westminster  If the OP is sufficiently aggrieved to post his concerns here, then he should take the next step, do the right thing and contact these people. They will decide what is right or wrong and take action accordingly.  http://cindex.camden.gov.uk/inform/wpdmaps/WardsHolbornCoventGarden.htm says they wouldn't be interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 28, 2009 Share #37 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Don't forget, also, that Leica UK are independent of Leica Camera AG Â Leica UK is a 100% owned subsidiary of Leica Camera AG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 28, 2009 Share #38  Posted June 28, 2009 Steve, On reflection I agree with you.  But if retailing is selling directly to the consumer then the line between dealer and consumer can become very blurry ("grey"? ) when moving between official Leica dealers and unscrupulous dealers or savvy consumers. For example, it's very difficult to identify who's a dealer and who's not because, afaik, there's no central body who registers bona fide dealers - I'm not particularly referring to Leica dealers here. So, if you've ever managed to buy goods at trade price it (I suspect) indicates a dealer-to-dealer transaction but would that then entitle you to sell that to someone else as new goods? Clearly if you were a consumer you wouldn't be entitled.  I wonder how the law sees it? (If only Vinay were here he'd know because he claimed to be variously: a gastroenterologist, a lawyer, a Leica connoisseur, right, a CEO, Superman etc ... )  Pete.  A legendary name !!! Sometime I suspect he's still around here... I think isn't impossible to re-register yourself on the LUF with another identitiy... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 28, 2009 Share #39 Â Posted June 28, 2009 http://cindex.camden.gov.uk/inform/wpdmaps/WardsHolbornCoventGarden.htm says they wouldn't be interested. Â ...so give the right one then. Â Regards, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 28, 2009 Share #40 Â Posted June 28, 2009 Leica UK is a 100% owned subsidiary of Leica Camera AG. Â Are you sure, Ian? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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