Death of the R - How do you really feel?

[SteveYork]

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Watch this space. I am still convinced there will be some new models, if not called R10. Trouble is, they take so damn long... and the market gets disappointed and disillusioned waiting. Couldn't the company send out some positive signs?

 

 

The problem for Leica is that their dwindling customer base for a DSLR will now completely leave, except for the handful of DMR users. And w/o something that can use R lenses, there's little incentive to come back.

 

Given the digital terrain, where each company now makes cameras and lenses that take great pictures, there's very little incentive to buy into an expensive Leica system, unless it can take "your" pre-existing lenses. A new Leica system, that requires not only a new body but lenses too, would have to be very competitive price wise for people to justify buying into it. I know I'm stating the obvious, but one of the real appeals of the R10 was for all these people who had the ROM R lenses.

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[lct]

OK but if Pana (or PanaLeica) launches an APS EVIL to morrow, it'll have an adapter ring for R lenses i guess. Those of us who don't like EVFs will use canikon bodies then but others could be tempted by the new Pana thing as well, all the more if the latter allows wide aperture metering with R lenses contrary to current and probably future DSLRs.

[leicapages]

Agree with SteveYork. There must a solution which allows full use of ROM R lenses, without the inconvenience of adaptors or the like. And an APS size "second class" solution won't cut it either, I am afraid. As things stand now the R is state-of-the-art but at the same time a dead end. I do not see many R users with lots of lens inventory abandoning this for an incompatible and expensive system like the S2, especially while the lenses would have to be repurchased at many €€€.

Let us face it: if one has to sell off or change system completely (body, lenses, accessories), then all options become open. Such user may (and should) as well look at other, non-Leica, high-end options besides the S2. I can think of some: Hasselblad, Mamiya/PhaseOne, Leaf/Sinar/Rolleiflex.

I can understand Leica, but it is a dangerous gamble which will estrange many existing R users. Just my thoughts.

[lct]

A "first class" solution like the M8 is still a cropped one anyway so setting aside the EVF issue, there wouldn't be much difference between a Summicron-M on the M8 and a Summicron-R on the APS EVIL if any.

[jaapv]

The problem for Leica is that their dwindling customer base for a DSLR will now completely leave, except for the handful of DMR users. And w/o something that can use R lenses, there's little incentive to come back.

 

Given the digital terrain, where each company now makes cameras and lenses that take great pictures, there's very little incentive to buy into an expensive Leica system, unless it can take "your" pre-existing lenses. A new Leica system, that requires not only a new body but lenses too, would have to be very competitive price wise for people to justify buying into it. I know I'm stating the obvious, but one of the real appeals of the R10 was for all these people who had the ROM R lenses.

 

 

I think we can be sure that there will be very high-level AF Leica lenses for that system. I guess at Summarit price-level (baseless guess!)

[rsolomon]

I feel good and bad.....

 

i feel good that Leica is not string folks along any longer - i mean really years of silence..... i guess the answer also was crystal clear but many didn;t want to see it.--and im one of them

 

 

i feel bad becuase this is the end for me, oh i'll keep the lenses, lets face it that is the real investment. My guess is i will go Oly, especially if the new body incorporates anti-shake and focus confirmation.

 

I sure hope the M enthusiasts keep the company going - i think thats all they can really count on - which is probably why they made this decision.

 

To leica: you've made a lot of great products and you've made countless mistakes in marketing your product. R users at least deserve a digilix 4 (made by panny anyway).

[storybrown]

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<There must a solution which allows full use of ROM R lenses, without the inconvenience of adaptors or the like. And an APS size "second class" solution won't cut it either, I am afraid. As things stand now the R is state-of-the-art but at the same time a dead end. I do not see many R users with lots of lens inventory abandoning this for an incompatible and expensive system like the S2>

 

I think Pascal & others who know a lot more than I do are on track here, if indeed there really is a track. For my part, I don't need or want an S2 -- just not interested -- or an M13, etc. I will still be in for future scopes & binoculars, though, when I can save up for or otherwise get around to them (& maybe the odd C-Lux 13!). My Digilux 2 & CL are enough of an M for me, and, for the rest, I'll just bottom feed for more & more old R stuff for film needs & to assuage whatever intangible "leicaphiliac" urges that may continue to tempt me.

 

Guy

[mhoersch]

OK, so I bought a second R9/DMR to increase the time I can expect to use my R lenses. This money goes to the used gear market - I would have loved to spend it on an R10. It's Leica's choice to abandon their R customer base and bet their whole future on the S2 adventure. We'll see if they will be around to regret their choices...

[tobey bilek]

Pretty sad. Been waiting patiently for R10 digital. Now a EVF thing from some third party will be the solution. Well that won`t make me happy in the least.

 

I will shoot film in my M and R cameras and digi stuff is Nikon. They are no Leicas, but OK cameras. I am talking the pro models only. Without a digi R, I will not use a digi M.

 

Leica can sell their stuff to the Hermes crowd. I gave my love for decades and what did I get. Obsolete.

[dhsimmonds]

Angry.........................I saw this coming, and got a DMR a couple of months ago. Thank God my senses had the better of me.

 

I also saw this coming six months ago after waiting patiently following the official Leica propaganda about the R10 after Photokina. I sold my R9 and DMR with six R lenses. I am sure that the M8.2 is a great camera system but r/f just doesn't do it for me. I like real SLR flexibility with long telephoto's, macro lenses and good zooms's too much!

 

I had intended to move to MF with digital back until I saw some results from the Sony A900 with Zeiss A/F lenses. 24Mpx full frame sensor with anti-vibration in the body not the lenses, anti-dust sensor and all the extras needed to provide pro-performance with quality lenses. The only R lens I really miss is the 100 F2.8 macro as Zeiss do not produce one in the A mount yet and the old Minolta/Sony design is not up to Leica quality.

 

I even had some change from the proceeds of my R system sales!

 

I am extremely angry with Leica over this debacle and will probably never trust them again although I do respect the brand and it's great pedigree so I sincerely wish them well for the future.

[hoppyman]

I'm pretty sure that Leica didn't cancel the R10 just to annoy their customers. Leica, as with most of the world was not immune to the global financial mess. See the facts as candidly presented by Stefan Daniel on why that decision had to be made. Andreas has made available a précis of those comments both in the original German and an English translation.

I also saw this coming six months ago after waiting patiently following the official Leica propaganda about the R10 after Photokina. I sold my R9 and DMR with six R lenses. I am sure that the M8.2 is a great camera system but r/f just doesn't do it for me. I like real SLR flexibility with long telephoto's, macro lenses and good zooms's too much!

 

I had intended to move to MF with digital back until I saw some results from the Sony A900 with Zeiss A/F lenses. 24Mpx full frame sensor with anti-vibration in the body not the lenses, anti-dust sensor and all the extras needed to provide pro-performance with quality lenses. The only R lens I really miss is the 100 F2.8 macro as Zeiss do not produce one in the A mount yet and the old Minolta/Sony design is not up to Leica quality.

 

I even had some change from the proceeds of my R system sales!

 

I am extremely angry with Leica over this debacle and will probably never trust them again although I do respect the brand and it's great pedigree so I sincerely wish them well for the future.

[pierovitch]

I still use R macro lenses on a Nikon D700 and Pentax K10D but I ceased to be a Leica Reflex customer after the R7. I am glad I dumped R glass and bodies before the DMR.

If there is not a body to make the best of the R lens quality why bother.

Autofocus lenses are wear prone consumables and bodies have a shutter count lifespan.

Get used to equipment obsolescence or some Zeiss glass in your new cameras mount while they still make non AF primes.

[Gianluca Capiozzo]

I felt very sad for the slow agony of the R System...

I feel very worried about the death of the R System...

I will fell very angry if i will not see a new R System Digital Camera!!!

[Joop van Heijgen]

For me the R- is not dead as long as I can use my Leicaflexes SL(2) and various other R cameras. A few weeks ago I gave my Leicaflex SL a CLA; it works fine again like a brand new mechanical camera!

 

I can use these cameras till the end of my live....

 

We call it Leica quality...!

[dhsimmonds]

I can use these cameras till the end of my live....

 

Or whilst there is still 35mm film being made! Kodachrome RIP

[harrisfoto]

The digital SLR technology will likely die out.

The first step on this path seems to be the electronic viewfinder SLRs like the Panasonic G1. Having a mechanical mirror does not make much sense on an electronic camera. This also allows for a much shorter distance between the lens mount and sensor. Which in turn means that almost any 35mm lens can be mounted on the camera. Too bad that instead of scaling this down, they did not scale it up to a full frame 35mm sensor. The G1 now allows the use of all of the R glass, and perhaps M glass on the camera. Leica is on record as saying that they think the sensor is too small.

There is no need for an optical view finder. All a user needs is accurate focus and framing. In fact, the Micro 4/3 cameras have ELECTRONIC VIEWFINDERS which automatically brighten up the lens aperture is made smaller. In other words, this makes them close to ideal for use with adapted lenses. Eventually these will be a combo still and video cameras, and will take almost all of the 35mm lenses.

It will be interesting to see how long before Canon and Nikon dump the optical mirror system. Both are mostly useless with the autofocus systems anyway.

[SteveYork]

"Leica is on record..." -- of saying a lot of things.

[lct]

...There is no need for an optical view finder...

How do you explain that most (all?) full frame and APS cameras have an optical viewfinder then?

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[Joop van Heijgen]

Or whilst there is still 35mm film being made! Kodachrome RIP

 

I use Kodak Ektachrome E100VS

 

35mm film will be made as long people photograph with it....

[thrid]

The digital SLR technology will likely die out.

The first step on this path seems to be the electronic viewfinder SLRs like the Panasonic G1. Having a mechanical mirror does not make much sense on an electronic camera. This also allows for a much shorter distance between the lens mount and sensor. Which in turn means that almost any 35mm lens can be mounted on the camera. Too bad that instead of scaling this down, they did not scale it up to a full frame 35mm sensor. The G1 now allows the use of all of the R glass, and perhaps M glass on the camera. Leica is on record as saying that they think the sensor is too small.

There is no need for an optical view finder. All a user needs is accurate focus and framing. In fact, the Micro 4/3 cameras have ELECTRONIC VIEWFINDERS which automatically brighten up the lens aperture is made smaller. In other words, this makes them close to ideal for use with adapted lenses. Eventually these will be a combo still and video cameras, and will take almost all of the 35mm lenses.

It will be interesting to see how long before Canon and Nikon dump the optical mirror system. Both are mostly useless with the autofocus systems anyway.

 

I'm sorry, but unless you primarily take pictures of stationary or slow moving objects an EVF is a disaster.

 

I just spent some time with a Pana G1 and there is about a 1/4 - 1/8th second lag between what you see when you trip the shutter release and what ends up being captured. And this is with a viewfinder that supposedly is updated at 250Mhz. Overall a nice camera, but useless for serious work.

 

As an example I tried to take a shot of pedestrians, just as they were passing behind a post. Looking through the viewfinder I was convinced that I was nailing it every time, but upon playback I noticed that everyone had consistently been captured almost exactly one step beyond the post. What you were seeing in the viewfinder did not correlate to what was being captured at the moment that the shutter was being released.

 

You can forget about using this type of camera for anything that requires split second timing like street photography, reportage or documentary work. Part of what makes the M system so special is that the shutter delay is about .10 - .12 millisecond. The picture is taken nearly instantaneous. You can freeze people in mid air. A good SLR system is nearly as fast (40 millisecond) and capable. An EVF camera is not even in the ballpark and it's not even because of shutter delay. The shutter release on the G1 is actually quite crisp. It's the lag between what you are seeing and what is actually captured that is the problem.

 

EVF may be fine for video cameras, but not for still cameras. And even in that area opinion is split. Most cinematographers despise EVF finders on movie cameras.

 

I have no idea what they are putting in the water over there in Solms, but a EVF R-system sounds like a pretty bad idea, unless they have some technological trump card up their sleeve that no one has seen before. And I doubt they have that.