Death of the R - How do you really feel?

[cpclee]

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Angry.

 

Leica has been promising an integrated FF body for R lenses since maybe 2003 or 2004, before the DMR came out, and look where they are. While I won't mind an EVF body (that's the future), how can one trust that they will deliver?

 

I saw this coming, and got a DMR a couple of months ago. Thank God my senses had the better of me.

[mgcd]

I stuck by and waited through the long gestation period of the DMR when others were leaving Leica in droves. While I was rewarded by the great quality of the DMR itself, it soon became apparent that Leica only has eyes for the M system and totally neglected the R, resulting in the death of the system. Am I angry? A little. But mostly I'm considering options for the future since the development path for the R is at an end. However, I should say that my confidence in Leica has been shaken.

 

I am still contemplating my options at this point, I have been close to putting my DMR up for sale on several occasions over the past couple of months. The only reason I have not is that I find it hard to part with it. The results are still phenomenal. That said find offerings by other systems are now equally attractive. This is something that I would not have considered before I found out that Leica was completely discontinuing the R a few months ago. Yes, I said a few months ago... I did post the info back then... anyway...

[Jamie Roberts]

Conrad, I for one would be interested in what you're contemplating.

 

My problem is I've already looked long and hard at the other offerings, lens wise anyway, and I love my R stuff more. Even back to a 70s Summicron 50 I prefer the colour, the contrast, the sharpness (or lack of it sometimes) and the precision with which these lenses just work.

 

Case in point: the best current 50mm lens for Canon is the 50 1.2L. I had two literally come apart on me at a wedding.

 

Case in point: the best current 50mm lens for Nikon, is the Sigma 50 1.4 ASPH. It walks all over the Nikkors (though not, perhaps, the manual focus 1.2 Nikkor which I haven't tried yet). But is it a 50 R Lux?

 

Not a chance.

 

And try as I might, though there are many who might say I'm nuts, the colour from the Nikons just isn't as good (talking D3 here, not D3x) as it is from the DMR.

 

So what are the options? S2?

 

The only way I'd want to use these lenses on the Nikon would be to re-do the bayonets, and I'm actually pretty sure that Gerry S at Kindermann would help me do it properly. But that means I couldn't use them on my R9 / DMR either.

 

So there's no compatible way forward. It's just frustrating.

 

To make matters worse, with this announcement, I shudder to think of what my DMR is worth now.

[mgcd]

Conrad, I for one would be interested in what you're contemplating....

 

....To make matters worse, with this announcement, I shudder to think of what my DMR is worth now.

 

I almost woke up in cold sweats thinking about it... However, I haven't tested the waters yet. I find the way they announce things cavalier at best, wreckless most likely.

 

My choices so far appear to be, in no particular order:

 

Sell the DMR and get a 5D MKII + adapter and keep my R lenses

Keep the DMR and R lenses and later buy either 5D MKII + adapter or D700 with new Nikkor lenses (I prefer the body construction of the 5DII here)

Keep the DMR & R lenses and wait for the S2 (depending on prices)

Get rid of all Leica bodies: R8/DMR, and 2 other R8 etc. and switch completely to Nikon D3X and converting all R lenses to Nikon mount. and later get an F6

 

The truth is if the price offered for the DMR is too low, I'll just keep it considering what I actually paid for it. Most likely, I then would just add a 5D MKII + adapter in the meantime, for access to low light performance and HD video. It should be spectacular with the R lenses.

 

Cheers,

[RPS]

I'm not angry ... it's hard for me to be angry since all of my Leica gear (except for my D-Lux 4) came to me via inheritance from my Dad. So, I don't really have much personal investment to fret about.

 

What I am is disappointed. After receiving my Dad's gear, I first came to this forum to learn about Leica and the appropriate use of this wonderful gear. However, at that time what I really wanted was a digital solution and was persuaded by what I read here to wait for the R10, instead of selling my gear or gravitating to a Canon solution with adapters.

 

That is not to say I haven't enjoyed using my SL2 and my R5 in the interim. I appreciate this gear and I've become a better photographer through its use. I just know that -- for me -- those two bodies are not going to be my preferred camera bodies for the long-haul. Now that I have the D-Lux 4, I hardly every pull out either the SL2 or the R5 -- comparatively, they're just too much trouble.

 

As a recreational photographer, the effort (and cost) -- between shutter release and finished print -- arising from use of the SL2 and R5 is simply more than I have the time (or inclination) to invest on a regular basis. Regrettable really -- because the glass I have is really fine glass.

[miami91]

In my case, I've owned M cameras and Leica compacts for several years, but just entered the R family by buying, brand new, two R9 bodies, and thus far 6 lenses from the SH Photo clearance. While I had much hope for an R10, I'm content shooting film, and absolutely love the performance and industrial design of the R9 and R lenses.

 

Digital future? I'm quite interested in whatever Leica has up their sleeves (although suspicious of EVFs), and would give it strong consideration if/when it makes an appearance. Till then? Film only.

 

Jeff.

[rosuna]

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It was quite clear in the Hessenpark. 4/3rds is out. Full format is in.

 

During Lee's tenure Leica had problems with Panasonic. Serious problems.

 

In addition, Leica doesn't like the 4/3 format, any system, 4/3 or micro 4/3. I don't know why is it. Too small? Leica sells compact cameras made by Panasonic. Is the image quality of the micro 4/3 worse than that of a compact? We know Panasonic prefers lower cost lenses and software correction to high optical correction. But, are they interested in a "premium" collection of lenses? Leica can provide that to the micro 4/3 system. Manufacture and distribution can be Panasonic's or Leica's... but that market could be profitable...

 

I don't know what is happening in Leica-Panasonic relationship at this moment, but the small format market is interesting (compact cameras, micro 4/3) and profitable.

 

Leica has a small portfolio of digital products. At this moment, just the Panaleicas and the M8. Revenues cannot be very high selling only that.

[mhoersch]

Disappointed, frustrated and really, really angry this time. I'm never going to believe anything anyone at Leica says anymore. After all that b*****t about scaling down the S2 and all that.

 

And no EVF for me, thanks. One day it's the super technology of an S2 to be used in a coming R10 the size of an R7, and the next day it's an EVF "solution" of a different manufacturer. Who do they think the users of R-glass are? Complete idiots?

[stuny]

I love my DMR, though I'd like it to be smaller, lighter and have a more promising future when it needs service.

 

I love my D2, even though the EVF is less than I'd like it to be.

 

I love my Pana version of the C-Lux-2 for its tiny size and surprising performance.

 

I'd welcome an EVIL that takes my R lenses as long as the execution of the design is at least quite good.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

The truth is if the price offered for the DMR is too low, I'll just keep it considering what I actually paid for it. Most likely, I then would just add a 5D MKII + adapter in the meantime, for access to low light performance and HD video. It should be spectacular with the R lenses.

 

Thanks Conrad.

 

Yes, I guess the 5d2 plus adapters is an option as well. I've never found the adapters wonderfully reliable or quick though (the ones that are reliable--the focus-confirming ones--are often flaky which makes them a little slow to use). Since I own a D3 now, I'm pretty tempted to go with the mount conversion--except my DMR is still so good

 

You're right about the 5d2 video though: it should be wonderful with R glass! Canon has released a fix to the 5d2 to let people select apertures while shooting video, but of course manual R glass can always force an aperture (and therefore DOF and another dimension of the frame...).

[roguewave]

I loved my first car. In 1967 I bought a vintage Austin Healey Sprite with the detachable windows. Girls loved that car even more, especially the ones that came down from the frozen tundra to Miami Beach, where there were still vacant lots to lay down a blanket, make love & have a smoke while listening to the surf pound against the sand. Next was my $300 powder blue Karmann Ghia. Get the point. We bought these cameras & lenses and speaking only for my self, I bought the BEST & don't have a single regret.

 

"Could be!

Who knows?

There's something due any day;

I will know right away,

Soon as it shows.

It may come cannonballing down through the sky,

Gleam in its eye,

Bright as a rose!

 

Who knows?

It's only just out of reach,

Down the block, on a beach,

Under a tree.

I got a feeling there's a miracle due,

Gonna come true,

Coming to me!

 

Could it be? Yes, it could.

Something's coming, something good,

If I can wait!

Something's coming, I don't know what it is,

But it is

Gonna be great!

 

With a click, with a shock,

Phone'll jingle, door'll knock,

Open the latch!

Something's coming, don't know when, but it's soon;

Catch the moon,

One-handed catch!

 

Around the corner,

Or whistling down the river,

Come on, deliver

To me!

Will it be? Yes, it will.

Maybe just by holding still,

It'll be there!

 

Come on, something, come on in, don't be shy,

Meet a guy,

Pull up a chair!

The air is humming,

And something great is coming!

Who knows?

It's only just out of reach,

Down the block, on a beach,

Maybe tonight . . . "

 

Lyrics to Somethings Coming - West Side Story

 

All the Best, Ben

[thrid]

Has anyone considered the lag you get with EVIl finders and how that affects your ability to capture the decisive moment? Even if that screen is running at 60fps it's too slow. You're going to miss. I've yet to see a EVIl finder that was fast enough.

 

To me this makes the concept unusable, especially for professional work or street photography, where the only thing fast enough is an image transmitted at the speed of light via a clear RF window or SLR system.

[jaapv]

I did. For that kind of thing we'll have the M9

[mgcd]

Has anyone considered the lag you get with EVIl finders and how that affects your ability to capture the decisive moment? Even if that screen is running at 60fps it's too slow. You're going to miss. I've yet to see a EVIl finder that was fast enough.

 

To me this makes the concept unusable, especially for professional work or street photography, where the only thing fast enough is an image transmitted at the speed of light via a clear RF window or SLR system.

 

That is precisely why an EVF or EVIL based camera concept is completely unacceptable. Quite honestly though, it is highly unlikely that any such solution will ever emerge for the R, given Leica's track record with the R lately.

[byerstexas]

I've been mulling over the significance of the end of the R line (and it is significant: No further traditional, 35mm Leica film or digital SLR body, period) and wondering what lies ahead. It seems obvious now that the S2 replaces the R in the model line-up as Leica's high-end DSLR offering, albeit in a different area of the market and at a significantly higher price point. It also seems clear that an M9 will appear eventually (was there ever really any doubt about the M line continuing).

 

What though of the 'future R solution'? Reports from the Hessenpark Meet speak of a future model being FF with EVF and, we're assuming, developed in association with a partner (for the moment I'm assuming that it will be a Digilux model and that the partner will be Panasonic, but it could be something entirely different of course). Now this development might have been forced upon Leica by cold economic reality, but might it also present them with an opportunity to take a bold leap of faith into the future?

 

Although I'm not an R owner I do have fond memories of using a loaned R9 plus a couple of lenses, so much so that I oh so nearly bought it with only the need to go digital and the cost of the DMR putting me off (I often find myself regretting that decision). As a non-owner then, I can sit back and watch from the sidelines with only the price of entry to the S system of concern in the short term, and the wait for the 'R solution' in the longer term should the S2 prove beyond me or unsuitable.

But what of the loyal R owner who's been waiting oh so patiently for so long, how do you really feel about all of this this? Are you angry and frustrated or just resigned to a fait accompli? Will you stick with film? Will you stick with Leica for your non-M digital system and give the 'R solution' and new technology a chance, or is the thought of another long wait for an unknown product just too much? Finally, if you jump ship, will you hold onto your R lenses for use with a different body or switch systems entirely?

I've been shooting with an R-3 MOT and a full compliment of lenses for over twenty years. It's a beast, but I love the thing. Just came in from a shoot. I will always use this camera for some work, but as I am making more shots in remote outdoor areas, I'll have to make a move, as this is just to heavy to lug around along with the rest of the stuff in my pack, at my age (nearing sixty, alas).

 

It's a shame for Leica to abandon the film based SLR, but the reality is that the market is going away, relentless, unyielding quality or no. Tough, but so it goes.

 

Shoot straight, y'all,

GWB

[mgcd]

Thanks Conrad.

 

Yes, I guess the 5d2 plus adapters is an option as well. I've never found the adapters wonderfully reliable or quick though (the ones that are reliable--the focus-confirming ones--are often flaky which makes them a little slow to use). Since I own a D3 now, I'm pretty tempted to go with the mount conversion--except my DMR is still so good

 

You're right about the 5d2 video though: it should be wonderful with R glass! Canon has released a fix to the 5d2 to let people select apertures while shooting video, but of course manual R glass can always force an aperture (and therefore DOF and another dimension of the frame...).

 

Jamie - The more I think about it, the more it is likely that I will get the 5D MKII in the future simply for that HD video. My R glass should really be superb given the already great results produced by Canon's L lenses on the 5DII. Honestly, I think the way Leica has mishandled the R and the announcement of its demise is perhaps their biggest faux-pas so far. I would hazard to say they may have lost a lot of goodwill this time. R users used to be a rabidly loyal lot...

[nikau]

An interesting discussion! I became resigned to it a long time ago and went to Canon with a mix of Canon and Leica R lenses, but I keep film in the mix (and my R6.2 and SL2 in action) with a Nikon 9000 scanner. This solution works well enough that I now only have an academic interest in whether Leica ever brings out an "R10" type of camera.

[JBA]

I'm disappointed and disillusioned.

 

Though I'm strictly a film photographer, I was really excited about the prospect of an R10 as a way to get into digital photography that would allow me to use both my film Rs and a FF digital R seamlessly. Silly me, thinking it made such intuitive sense for Leica to offer a dedicated digital camera in the R lineage to tap into an existing user base that an R10 was a foregone conclusion.

 

And now they're talking about some vague "adequate solution"? And with EVF?? That's just never going to happen for me. Now I'm not the least bit interested in what this "adequate solution" is going to be.

 

I'll stick with my SL2 and Kodachrome, thanks.

[stevelap]

I think it's fair to say that, so far, the opinions express here have tended to lean towards anger, frustration, disappointment, disillusion and resignation, with just a hint of hope for the EVIL future.

 

One other thought that comes to mind concerns the availability of any new model from Leica in the near term. Apart from the existing compacts and the M the only thing on the horizon is the S2 which, no matter how good and desirable it may be, is going to be beyond the reach of many. The R10 was to have been next but that's gone and we're now told that the M9 (or M8.3) will most likely be the next new model. But when? Although some reports from Hessenpark hint at early 2010 (PMA maybe) it's perhaps more likely to be photokina in September. And will that be announced or available? As for the 'future R solution', well place your bets for 2011 or beyond. So, it may well be another eighteen months, probably more, before anything new is available apart from the S2. And that's if Leica can stick with those vague promises, a big if given recent events of course.

 

Usually I'm a "glass half full" optimist, always happy to give the benefit the doubt, including EVIL etc. But come September this year there's a good chance that I'll be joining the ranks of the frustrated if I can't have an S2. I want an M again, but not before the M9 becomes available, and it seems that any sort of a digital R solution is at least another two-years away at least.

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[jaapv]

It is interesting to see that the balance of opinion seems to be a bit more positive on the German forum. I wonder how Leica will read that, as the remarks of Mr. Daniel were clearly a sounding-out exercise as well.