Vieri Posted June 15, 2009 Share #81 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Okay, now that I have some sleep under my belt (I have a new 4 month old boy) I think I was wrong and confused. Of course the filters have been a PITA so best to see them gone. Whether we will or not is a whole 'nother matter. And good idea to keep the longer lenses on the M8 when working with both. As far as film users not switching to Digital M becasue of the filters is a bit of a red herring though if you ask me. Once I started to shoot with the M8, I haven't put a roll of color in my M7 in two years. Some b&w now and then but see no need to remove the filter (though have gotten some nasty reflections under candlelight). I'm sure that even with the M9, no matter what, there will be film M users still grumbling and finding a reason not to switch. Which is fine - I love film and hope people continue to shoot it for years to come (I know I will for certain projects). Just don't grumble about the M8/9 until you've actually worked with it. Charles, if you refer to my post, I am actually talking about users that DID use the M8 (I had 2 for about a year) and dropped them altogether, part because of other well known reliability & general problems, part because of "focal length distress" so to speak, and part because of the pain of having to switch filters on and off - having to choose, more than a red herring decided to keep film and drop digital (there are quite a few on the forum here, and I am pretty sure more in the non-forum world). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 Hi Vieri, Take a look here M9 on track. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zlatkob Posted June 15, 2009 Share #82 Posted June 15, 2009 Ans argument that has been raging since 1925. Yes, Leicas cost a lot of money, no, they are not expensive. You should visit the factory once and see the way they are built. If anything they are underpriced. The mewrket does play a role, and in fact it forces the price down to the lowest level consistent with reasonable profit. That is the reason the company has been strapped for capital for as long as anybody can remember. The profits, such as they are, are ploughed back into the product, there is no fancy factory building, no marble-floor staff restaurant, the workers sit outside on the emergency stairs to have their cigarettes, the senior staf does not drive company Mercedes S cars,etc... I appreciate those points and I believe them. I do think, however, that the company could make more money by creating a cheaper entry point to their fantastic lenses. Currently, $5K+ is the price just to walk through the door. This is a tall barrier for many photographers. Those photographers are therefore not buying ANY Leica lenses either. Canon and Nikon have many cheap entry points into the world of their expensive cameras and lenses. Some photographers who start with an entry-level DSLR and kit lens will years later be buyers of expensive $4K-$8K cameras and $1K-$5K lenses. And some of them will have 5+ camera bodies and 10+ lenses, representing an investment of tens of thousands of dollars. But the key to getting that high-spending buyer is often that cheap entry point years earlier. I'm not suggesting that Leica should make a very cheap M camera. However, it would probably be wise to offer two digital rangefinders. This would be somewhat analogous to Canon's bifurcation between the 1DIII and the 1DsIII, or between the 50D and the 5DII. One would be a cropped sensor medium-resolution model like the current M8/M8.2, but at a lower price to create a lower entry point into the lens system. This would be a "Summarit"-like M body (i.e. in price and philosophy). The other would be a full-frame high-resolution model, the "M9", let's say, for those who want and can afford the ultimate DRF. As an armchair CEO, I imagine that bifurcating the digital M into 2 models would ultimately improve sales generally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 15, 2009 Share #83 Posted June 15, 2009 You don't need to spend five grand of any currency (apart from maybe Yen) to get into Leica ownership. There are thousands of M bodies out there for about 1/5 of that price and hundreds of thousands at 1/10 that price. A decent M7 will cost you around £1,200 max. Even if you would not consider a film M, a used M8 will start at a lot less than £2,000. Leicas have never been cheap. Ever. But, they have one of the most active second hand markets which allows even people like me to take advantage of their cameras and their lenses However, it wouldn't surprise me at all, to be sitting here in 12 months time, with two different digital Ms on offer, as you describe. IIRC, this was discussed here a couple of weeks ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #84 Posted June 15, 2009 Charles, if you refer to my post, I am actually talking about users that DID use the M8 (I had 2 for about a year) and dropped them altogether, part because of other well known reliability & general problems, part because of "focal length distress" so to speak, and part because of the pain of having to switch filters on and off - having to choose, more than a red herring decided to keep film and drop digital (there are quite a few on the forum here, and I am pretty sure more in the non-forum world). I suppose I was one of those who used the M8 for awhile and then decided to part ways for all the reasons you mention above. But to be quite honest, my primary reason is a bit of an unusual one in that the M8 was simply too much of a distraction from shooting all Kodachrome in my Leica gear, which I have dedicated my self to for the next couple years. Ever since I played with an M8.2 in Kurland about a month ago, the lure having one again sees a Digital M in my future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #85 Posted June 15, 2009 Ans argument that has been raging since 1925. Yes, Leicas cost a lot of money, no, they are not expensive. You should visit the factory once and see the way they are built. If anything they are underpriced. The mewrket does play a role, and in fact it forces the price down to the lowest level consistent with reasonable profit. That is the reason the company has been strapped for capital for as long as anybody can remember. The profits, such as they are, are ploughed back into the product, there is no fancy factory building, no marble-floor staff restaurant, the workers sit outside on the emergency stairs to have their cigarettes, the senior staf does not drive company Mercedes S cars,etc... $5000-6000 for a camera body is a lot of cash for all but the well heeled. There really is no way of getting around that, no matter what logic you apply. Please correct me if I am wrong I think you own two bodies and several lenses, so obviously money isn't an issue for you and honestly I'm glad that is the case for you. I make a healthy salary, but even for me almost $10,000 for an M8.2 with the 2/28 Cron is not chicken scratch. Every dealer I've spoken too feels the same way. It is very difficult for them to move stock at these prices. Competition from Canon and Nikon in the form of the D700 and 5D-2 doesn't help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalippe Posted June 15, 2009 Share #86 Posted June 15, 2009 I apologize if this has been resolved but I haven't been able to find the resolution in the two long threads on the subject. Jaap's news seems very different from that posted by Andy Barton in the thread about the lack of a R10. Is there now general consensus on what was said about: a) The likelihood of the M8.3 The timing of the M9 c) The likelihood that the M9 will be full frame On all three of these things Andy's and Jaap's information seems contradictory. Thanks! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #87 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You don't need to spend five grand of any currency (apart from maybe Yen) to get into Leica ownership. There are thousands of M bodies out there for about 1/5 of that price and hundreds of thousands at 1/10 that price. A decent M7 will cost you around £1,200 max. Even if you would not consider a film M, a used M8 will start at a lot less than £2,000. Leicas have never been cheap. Ever. But, they have one of the most active second hand markets which allows even people like me to take advantage of their cameras and their lenses However, it wouldn't surprise me at all, to be sitting here in 12 months time, with two different digital Ms on offer, as you describe. IIRC, this was discussed here a couple of weeks ago. True but the sale of 2nd hand M bodies does not help Leicas bottom line. Arri had the same problem. For many years the market was flooded with thousands of perfectly viable movie cameras. The darn things would simply not die, even after decades of use. Eventually they had to refuse to service certain bodies to force them in to retirement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #88 Posted June 15, 2009 $5000-6000 for a camera body is a lot of cash for all but the well heeled. There really is no way of getting around that, no matter what logic you apply. Correct me if I am wrong I think you own two bodies and several lenses, so obviously money isn't an issue for you and I'm glad that is the case for you. I make a healthy salary and almost $10,000 for an M8.2 with the 2/28 Cron is not chicken scratch. Every dealer I've spoken too feels the same way. It is very difficult for them to move stock at these prices. Competition from Canon and Nikon in the form of the D700 and 5D-2 doesn't help. Even wealthy people I know feel this way, anyone who acts like it is not expensive is *trying* to be a snob... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #89 Posted June 15, 2009 there is always passionate people.. hehe dont take me seriously-- i think about Rockwell lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted June 15, 2009 Share #90 Posted June 15, 2009 The debate here is interesting, but I think that we have to hold on to some of the realities that those of us who make all or part of our living through photography face. I have run SLR/RF systems for getting on for 20 years, because I needed both systems. When digital came along I had to make the jump (20D then 1D2) because they let me deliver what clients needed in the time frame they required. They also let me do good quality colour work in low + artificial light that film never allowed! I was gutted that I couldn't use Ms for my professional work and the system lay fallow for far too long. I sold one of the M6's and have recently sold an M7. I still keep an M6 TTL for auld lang syne as much as anything. But the M8s I use all the time - they've got better over time. IMHO it was fantastic that I could upgrade one body (BTW - this is now my favourite - I actually wish I'd gone the upgrade path on both - I don't like the paint on the 8.2, hate Stupid mode being on the dial, and rarely bother with EV compensation - and my 8u is for some bizarre reason quieter!), but I still use them alongside the Canon system. I've got a wedding coming up this weekend - I'll use 5D/5D2 + zooms most of the time (I find it quick and convenient) but I'll take an M8 + a couple of lenses too. A concert series in the Autumn? It'll be the M8s when I'm working close, the Canon's with long lenses when I can't (just got a beautiful used series 1 EOS 300 2.8 L - sharp as a tack and stunning colour). Do you see where I'm going. OK - maybe there'll be an M9 in a bit. I might get one. In the meantime I (and a lot of other working people out there) use the M8 to take photos - and bless Leica for getting it to market, flakey as it might have been at the beginning. Enough. Sorry for banging in - it's just that I'm REALLY not sure what the fuss is all about. Filters? So what? Cropped sensor. So what? No digital M camera? Now that would hurt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl4069 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #91 Posted June 15, 2009 The Leica man says they are having trouble figuring out how to design the M9...and yet people here feel the odds are good if not probable that the camera will be ready by next year? I think thats a stretch or wishful thinking. Really now how long might it take to refine the sensor and all other electronics to work correctly and then create working prototypes for reliability testing? Anyone heard of R&D? Actions and words, JL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #92 Posted June 15, 2009 The Leica man says they are having trouble figuring out how to design the M9...and yet people here feel the odds are good if not probable that the camera will be ready by next year? I think thats a stretch or wishful thinking. We're all just guessing, only Leica know the outstanding issues. What if they've already solved the M8 issue of the angle of light on a full frame sensor and were able to build a camera with a full frame, but they hadn't yet found a way to do away with the IR filters? If that were the case, and they couldn't solve the IR issue, then they release an M9 that requires the continued use of filters. Again, this is just supposition on my part based on the fact that IR was mentioned as an issue with the M9, but not light fall off in the corners of a full frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #93 Posted June 15, 2009 Charles, if you refer to my post, I am actually talking about users that DID use the M8 (I had 2 for about a year) and dropped them altogether, part because of other well known reliability & general problems, part because of "focal length distress" so to speak, and part because of the pain of having to switch filters on and off - having to choose, more than a red herring decided to keep film and drop digital (there are quite a few on the forum here, and I am pretty sure more in the non-forum world). Ah yes, I"m sorry, I recall that you did. I sure wish I could shoot all film still but my clients just aren't paying for it, and for my personal projects it's either digital or film medium format. For example I shot over 3500 pics on holiday in Europe last summer with the M8 and there's no way I would want that lab bill staring me in the face when I got back home! So kudos to those who continue to shoot film. I always thought I would be one of those (I only got my first digital camera in 2006 - a D200) and invested in an Imacon when everyone else was buying $7K Canons. The Imacon has paid for itself over and over again - my only regret was not buying a more high end model when I had the money. But I have to say, that the M9 will be game over for me. Maybe not enough to sell my Nikon D3, but really really close. BTW Vieri, you should check out the Istanbul gallery on my site. Spent eight days there this last summer and what an amazing city. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #94 Posted June 15, 2009 The debate here is interesting, but I think that we have to hold on to some of the realities that those of us who make all or part of our living through photography face. I have run SLR/RF systems for getting on for 20 years, because I needed both systems. When digital came along I had to make the jump (20D then 1D2) because they let me deliver what clients needed in the time frame they required. They also let me do good quality colour work in low + artificial light that film never allowed! I was gutted that I couldn't use Ms for my professional work and the system lay fallow for far too long. I sold one of the M6's and have recently sold an M7. I still keep an M6 TTL for auld lang syne as much as anything. But the M8s I use all the time - they've got better over time. IMHO it was fantastic that I could upgrade one body (BTW - this is now my favourite - I actually wish I'd gone the upgrade path on both - I don't like the paint on the 8.2, hate Stupid mode being on the dial, and rarely bother with EV compensation - and my 8u is for some bizarre reason quieter!), but I still use them alongside the Canon system. I've got a wedding coming up this weekend - I'll use 5D/5D2 + zooms most of the time (I find it quick and convenient) but I'll take an M8 + a couple of lenses too. A concert series in the Autumn? It'll be the M8s when I'm working close, the Canon's with long lenses when I can't (just got a beautiful used series 1 EOS 300 2.8 L - sharp as a tack and stunning colour). Do you see where I'm going. OK - maybe there'll be an M9 in a bit. I might get one. In the meantime I (and a lot of other working people out there) use the M8 to take photos - and bless Leica for getting it to market, flakey as it might have been at the beginning. Enough. Sorry for banging in - it's just that I'm REALLY not sure what the fuss is all about. Filters? So what? Cropped sensor. So what? No digital M camera? Now that would hurt! I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Yeah, my M7 .58x is lonely. I should almost sell it and get a classic M6 for old time's sake and invest the difference in savings for the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted June 15, 2009 Share #95 Posted June 15, 2009 Ah yes, I"m sorry, I recall that you did. I sure wish I could shoot all film still but my clients just aren't paying for it, and for my personal projects it's either digital or film medium format. For example I shot over 3500 pics on holiday in Europe last summer with the M8 and there's no way I would want that lab bill staring me in the face when I got back home! So kudos to those who continue to shoot film. I always thought I would be one of those (I only got my first digital camera in 2006 - a D200) and invested in an Imacon when everyone else was buying $7K Canons. The Imacon has paid for itself over and over again - my only regret was not buying a more high end model when I had the money. But I have to say, that the M9 will be game over for me. Maybe not enough to sell my Nikon D3, but really really close. BTW Vieri, you should check out the Istanbul gallery on my site. Spent eight days there this last summer and what an amazing city. Hello again Charles, I also like you have to shoot digital for work (Nikon D3), but I always manage to bring along a Nikon film camera (mostly F5); plus, I also use MF film (Hassy, Mamiya & Holga), and whenever I go out on the street I always have a couple of film Ms with me - for my street work is M + B/W film only... plus, shooting film gives me the chance of finding amazing gear for very low money, and a choice of cameras & lenses all with different qualities & strong points; I recently got an Oly XA, today a Minox 35, plus I bring out a Zeiss SuperIkonta at times, you know - lots of toys, small money, is enough to sell one image taken with any of this camera to pay it back ten times over... I love the digital era because it made shooting film with all sort of format, medium, cameras etc very very affordable, as it never has been before it is a lot of fun! Of course, I am keeping a close eye on the future digital M, and I have high hopes for the M9, M8.3 or whatever it will be called... But for now, M is film only for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 15, 2009 Share #96 Posted June 15, 2009 Do you see where I'm going. OK - maybe there'll be an M9 in a bit. I might get one. In the meantime I (and a lot of other working people out there) use the M8 to take photos - and bless Leica for getting it to market, flakey as it might have been at the beginning. Enough. Sorry for banging in - it's just that I'm REALLY not sure what the fuss is all about. Filters? So what? Cropped sensor. So what? No digital M camera? Now that would hurt! Absolutely Chris - every word. I have two M8's one was upgraded in December, the other one is in Solms right now - it should be back next week, I can't wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #97 Posted June 15, 2009 I have two M8's one was upgraded in December, the other one is in Solms right now - it should be back next week, I can't wait. I haven't shot a roll of film since buying my M8 two and a half years ago. I've never enjoyed using a camera as much as I've enjoyed using the M8, and I look forward to the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 15, 2009 Share #98 Posted June 15, 2009 Absolutely Chris - every word. I have two M8's one was upgraded in December, the other one is in Solms right now - it should be back next week, I can't wait. Jono--as a complete aside, but another design point for an M9, I guess--when you upgraded your M8s did you go for the shutter? If so, since you do a lot of landscape stuff, don't you miss the added shutter speed of the original? Sigh. I wonder if the M9 will have a fast *and quiet* shutter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted June 15, 2009 Share #99 Posted June 15, 2009 $5000-6000 for a camera body is a lot of cash for all but the well heeled. There really is no way of getting around that, no matter what logic you apply. Please correct me if I am wrong I think you own two bodies and several lenses, so obviously money isn't an issue for you and honestly I'm glad that is the case for you. I make a healthy salary, but even for me almost $10,000 for an M8.2 with the 2/28 Cron is not chicken scratch. Every dealer I've spoken too feels the same way. It is very difficult for them to move stock at these prices. Competition from Canon and Nikon in the form of the D700 and 5D-2 doesn't help. Given the depth and length of this current global recession/depression, I doubt many $7,000 plus cameras are being sold. Before all of this mess started, my accountant would tell me to go buy some cameras or lenses every November or December, otherwise the tax man would get it anyway. We're not rich, just hard working small business people. Spending $7-$15,000 on cameras and lenses every year was normal just 2 or 3 years ago. Things are different now. Other than replacing printers that have died of old age, we're just not buying all that much these days. On a brighter note, May was the best month so far this year and now I'm developing a backlog of orders. There's light at the end of the tunnel. So build that M9... just don't rush. Take your time and get everything right. Lets hope for FF M9 with 50 lux for $9K in the middle of 2010. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #100 Posted June 15, 2009 Sorry for banging in - it's just that I'm REALLY not sure what the fuss is all about. Filters? So what? Cropped sensor. So what? No digital M camera? Now that would hurt! I understand where you are coming from, but do you understand that some of us have different requirements from our gear that the M8 is not quite meeting? You don't need to be sure what all the fuss is about, you just need to be sure we are all different photographers with different clients and styles and that some of us are making sure that film stays in the workflow, even after 15 years of pro digital experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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