nugat Posted June 19, 2009 Share #361 Posted June 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Cinematic industry has been using Live View and Electronic View Finders for years. Video feeds from the traditional film movie cameras to both EVF and HD displays, EVF on the current digital movie cameras (Sony HD900, Panavision Genesis etc) work fine for Hollywood, make stash of ching and win cinematography oscars -"Slumdog millionaire". The latter's camera (SI 2000) used on half of the film, especially tight city shots, has a 600k EVF. Good enough for 100mil budgets ( eg Superman) , will sure make do for the smaller commercial and private photographic means... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 Hi nugat, Take a look here Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tdschofield Posted June 19, 2009 Share #362 Posted June 19, 2009 As much as I like the SL's viewfinder I have to agree. A viewfinder based on the actual sensor making the image eliminates a lot of calibration issues as well, not to mention replacing the Rube Goldberg phase-detect AF systems with the ability to use any point in the picture area to focus, manually or automatically. At the present stage of technological development I would not be happy if an EVF were the only option but consider what digital cameras were like ten years ago and imagine similar development of the EVF. Also, will larger EVF's replace view cameras? On tomorrow's iPhone 3Gs, you touch the part of the screen you want it to focus on, and it will. ;-) Doug, I agree with your post elsewhere, i.e. get a spare DMR if you can afford one, and get your R8s/9s serviced now while there are parts, as well as a few extra batteries. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 19, 2009 Share #363 Posted June 19, 2009 It's a little bit dangerous to speculate with so little facts, but there are two major possibilities: A. Leica tries to cut costs and doesn't want to do another investment like the S-System. So they waste all the know-how of the R&D-team of the S2 and buy some Panasonic and put a Leica-logo on it. But they said they need some time to introduce the M9 first, so it most likely won't be some kind of Digilux4: B. They don't want to make a third system which is close to the S-System but incompatible to the M and is just another "me too"-24MP-DSLR (with MF-technology, so slower). We always dreamed of a M-sized camera with full-frame, a precise TTL-viewfinder, AF, tele/macro/zooms, haven't we? So they just got a supplier who claims to be able to deliver the right EVF-viewfinder-quality and decided not to go with the R10 and new AF-lenses which are obsolete later because of strong retrofocus. So the new camera will be a M-sized Leica with an EVF and a new, quite large mount close to the sensor which adapts new AF-lenses (smaller than all R-lenses) and can be adapted to old R & M-lenses, too! @nugat They partly had to shoot "Slumdog" with these small cameras because they've filmed in the slums (mostly they filmed secretly), which has very little to do with "classic" film-making. Most DPs HATE EVFs and when you compare the optical viewfinder of an ARRI with an EVF you will understand why. Films like "Superman" or "Miami Vice" are a good example why the should NOT have used those cameras (which are made for HDTV, not cinema, that's why they're 1080p and not even 2k)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted June 19, 2009 Share #364 Posted June 19, 2009 I@nugat They partly had to shoot "Slumdog" with these small cameras because they've filmed in the slums (mostly they filmed secretly), which has very little to do with "classic" film-making. Most DPs HATE EVFs and when you compare the optical viewfinder of an ARRI with an EVF you will understand why. Films like "Superman" or "Miami Vice" are a good example why the should NOT have used those cameras (which are made for HDTV, not cinema, that's why they're 1080p and not even 2k)... Georg, Are you in the film business? I happen to be (producer). Danny Boyle loves small 'semipro" cams. "28 days" were all shot on Canon DV's. Actually part of the sequence of Slumdog (The Taj Mahal) was shot on ...canon 5Dm2. Do you know "cinema verite" term? Yes, that's the same philosophy as of Bresson, Capa and other M-crowd heros. Get close cunnigly so nobody notices you and your camera. Leica M was perfect for that. Please don't throw around terms you don't fully understand. 2k is the horizontal resolution for scanning negative film. It actually means 2048x1080 pixels. 1080p (progresssive) is actually the vertical resolution of 2k. In 2k the horizontal resolution is increased to 2048 to accomodate the ratio of film rather than the 16:9 1920x1080 HD standard. Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI) adopted 2k along with 4k scanning standards (4000dpi rings a bell?) as the projection standards. RED took it further to acquisition, Arri D20 joined in. Most digital Hollywood flicks and all of TV is shot with 1920x1080 still. Sony CineAlta, Panavision Genesis and Viper among others follow this standard. Any big flicks released on RED or Arri d20 yet? Piotr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 19, 2009 Share #365 Posted June 19, 2009 @nugat Those "semipro"-cameras and other HD-solutions can be used for feature films despite their IQ and ergonomics but they're not made for cinema in the first place. Just like a Leica M can be used for architecture or landscape, it can be done, it has it's charme, but in most situations it's not the ideal tool. That's what I meant, they accepted the IQ, the EVF but they didn't want it in the first place. 2k and 4k DCI are the "digital standards" for cinema, the resolution, the compression, the file-formats. 1080p is a HDTV-standard, well, for TV. The Genesis and the D20/D21 are designed for HDTV, to create a "35mm-look" for television. Well, some filmmakers already used them for feature films (Bank Job, Superbad), but the real 2k/4k-cameras for professional feature-film-work will arrive later (Panavision already presented their 33MP-sensor, 4k without color interpolation!), right now, a dedicated scanner (4k with oversampling, not telecine) and proper processing are the only way to get real 4k resolution (with >35mm-formats even more). That's why over 90% of all feature films are made on film (not just because of resolution, also robustness, DR, lack of digital artifacts...), with film-cameras and optical viewfinders (+video-assists). Just like the G1, EVF offer new possibilities, but this technology isn't ready yet for professional standards. A D40-user might be happy with the size, resolution and speed of the G1-viewfinder, a R9/S2/Hasselblad-user would also enjoy a liveview-function for sure, but not as a replacement for the optical viewfinder! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted June 19, 2009 Share #366 Posted June 19, 2009 Leica has nothing to do in traditional photo markets... the competition is too strong. Leica must look to new markets. The M system is a niche market, different to any other type of photo platform. The S system is in some sense a new kind of product, something in between traditional medium format cameras and professional 35mm cameras. The R system cannot be competitive. Leica needs a new platform for future products, adaptable to new circunstances, to new markets. A EVF camera with 35mm format is interesting enough, but that system can be the base for other products in the video/cinema direction. From a technological point of view the new system is a challenge. Autofocus is a problem (contrast-based), and the shutter is a problem too. The micro 4/3 cameras has a typical vertical curtains shutter. It must be open for AF operation, then close (the sensor shut off), then open (the sensor takes light), then close again (the picture is exposed), and then open for new AF operation. That is slow and noisy. The 4/3 has a key advantage: the format is very small and the shutter is small too. But 24x36mm is too large for that kind of operation. Alternatives? Electronic shutter (the sensor controls the exposure time, from top to bottom), but it isn't ready yet for video (it generates lag problems in the image), or some kind of circular shutter (rotary disc shutter), but is has to bee too large for 24x36 format... Rotary disc shutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I guessed the new Olympus E-P1 could use a rotary disc shutter, because the Original Olympus Pen had one, but finally it wasn't the case... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2009 Share #367 Posted June 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The micro 4/3 cameras has a typical vertical curtains shutter. It must be open for AF operation, then close (the sensor shut off), then open (the sensor takes light), then close again (the picture is exposed), and then open for new AF operation. That is slow and noisy. The 4/3 has a key advantage: the format is very small and the shutter is small too. But 24x36mm is too large for that kind of operation. Alternatives? Electronic shutter (the sensor controls the exposure time, from top to bottom), but it isn't ready yet for video (it generates lag problems in the image), or some kind of circular shutter (rotary disc shutter), but is has to bee too large for 24x36 format... Rotary disc shutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I guessed the new Olympus E-P1 could use a rotary disc shutter, because the Original Olympus Pen had one, but finally it wasn't the case... This is a very interesting remark, as Leica had to develop a completely new central shutter for the S2 (see the current LFI) Now if that technology could be implemented in an EVIL camera (Smaller=faster)... And another thought: Why is everybody assuming that salvation has to come from Japan:confused:. There is China... Leica microsystems builds their microscopes in a Leica plant in China. The Solms-Wetzlar area is more like a large village. You can't tell me that when employees meet in a Biergarten that they won't talk shop - so the ins and outs of the far east connection are probably well known at Leica Camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 19, 2009 Share #368 Posted June 19, 2009 @jaapv Why do you assume some kind of partnership? Of course, the EVF itself won't be build by Leica but hopefully by a professional supplier. China? Leica Microsystems builds low-quality, cheap microscopes there, yes. No comparison to skilled, trained (>3 years) well paid workers in Wetzlar. Hopefully Leica Camera won't be be so stupid to give production to cheap, primitive slave labour. Always remember, China isn't a constitutional state, every agreement (e.g. to pretect know-how) is worthless, they copy and take whatever they want. What about them?: http://www.ipms.fraunhofer.de/common/OMS_comedd.pdf Novaled is a very likely supplier for the S2-OLED, and the "R10" with it's high price and low production volume is propably a very nice experiment for them. But some others seem to finalize SXGA-microdisplays, too. But I don't think it will be Panasonic, because they only talked about the "partnership" with compact cameras, neither the M8 or S2 incorporate Panasonic-technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2009 Share #369 Posted June 19, 2009 I did not say it had to be China, I just wondered about the fixation in this forum on Japan. Having said that, China is quite capable of building high- end stuff. Just look at the number of hi-fi firms that have their equiment, designed in Europe, built there. I don't see why it would work differently with electronic camera bodies. To assume anything built in China to be cheap and nasty would be the same mistake everybody made with Japan in the past. About the microscopes: only the special, small production run ones are built in Germany. All the rest.... Anyway, it does not matter one whit where it is built, as long as Solms has the final say and I can use my lenses in a decent way. Don't forget it is highly interesting for Leica as well. They would not need to make much money on the bodies, but the attendant new range of AF R mount lenses, built in the same way as the Summarits (i.e. high-quality-standarized design-reasonable price) would be a source of revenue. The optical department has been proving over the last three years that they can deliver - fast and good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted June 19, 2009 Share #370 Posted June 19, 2009 Georg, Regrettably I have to disagree further. Filmmakers accept and love their digital toys for many reasons. It's enough to learn some background, Nobody forced on Danny Boyle the Silicon Imaging SI2000 (BTW a true 2k digital camera) inspite ot its EVF. Read here: Silicon Imaging Who forced on George Lucas the "semi-pro" Cinealta for Star Wars? Sony? Good joking... Who forced on Mel Gibson the "semi-pro" Thomson Viper for "Apocalypto"? Give me a break. Have you seen the pictures?? Michael Mann was blackmailed to shoot "semi-pro" Cinealta? Robert Rodriguez? Danny Boyle etc etc etc....Please read some more on those filmmakers and why they shoot digital. DCI is a distribution "standard" . 2k and 4k in DCI has a different compression scheme (JPEG2000) useful for distribution but not postproduction . In acqusition the only thing common with DCI is/will be the number of pixels. I would suggest further reading on the subject and some practice before making those bold statements. I don't even try to dispel the mixture of misconceptions , facts, assumptions and misinformation contained below, sorry to say that. Sometimes better not to write at all. @nugat Those "semipro"-cameras and other HD-solutions can be used for feature films despite their IQ and ergonomics but they're not made for cinema in the first place. Just like a Leica M can be used for architecture or landscape, it can be done, it has it's charme, but in most situations it's not the ideal tool. That's what I meant, they accepted the IQ, the EVF but they didn't want it in the first place. 2k and 4k DCI are the "digital standards" for cinema, the resolution, the compression, the file-formats. 1080p is a HDTV-standard, well, for TV. The Genesis and the D20/D21 are designed for HDTV, to create a "35mm-look" for television. Well, some filmmakers already used them for feature films (Bank Job, Superbad), but the real 2k/4k-cameras for professional feature-film-work will arrive later (Panavision already presented their 33MP-sensor, 4k without color interpolation!), right now, a dedicated scanner (4k with oversampling, not telecine) and proper processing are the only way to get real 4k resolution (with >35mm-formats even more). That's why over 90% of all feature films are made on film (not just because of resolution, also robustness, DR, lack of digital artifacts...), with film-cameras and optical viewfinders (+video-assists). Just like the G1, EVF offer new possibilities, but this technology isn't ready yet for professional standards. A D40-user might be happy with the size, resolution and speed of the G1-viewfinder, a R9/S2/Hasselblad-user would also enjoy a liveview-function for sure, but not as a replacement for the optical viewfinder! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 19, 2009 Share #371 Posted June 19, 2009 Some day, SLR optical viewfinders will be looked back upon with curiosity. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/87751-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-ff-m9-yet/?do=findComment&comment=937551'>More sharing options...
georg Posted June 19, 2009 Share #372 Posted June 19, 2009 @jaapv China has nothing in common with Japan! Many companies tried to save money with going to China, nobody became richer, most didn't survive and lost the fight against other manufacturers "Made in China". It's about efficiency, skill and technology, not wages. Know-How is directly transferred to China with international production networks, they introduce new products, solve problems in Germany, Switzerland or Japan and later offshore production/know-how to China. The "R10" will be (hopefully) a electronical/mechanical ambitous camera and not just a beautiful shell (like Hifi). My Macbook is a good example: it looks and feels like high-tech, if you look closer you notice that it's made by people who are lucky if they get enough food on the table after a 12h-day in the fab... The CNC-machining technology used is >20 years behind, I know many German machining shops who could manufacture it with tighter tolerances at twice the speed... All the cool design, production technology wasn't developed and won't be further developed in China (or other low-wage-countries). Sorry, but this is a sensitive topic for me, I've worked for the most powerful automotive supplier in the world and have seen with my own eyes what side-effects low-wage-countries have to social-standards, quality and also economics... @nugat Boyle looked for very compact, unobtrusive cameras and found them with the SI-2k Of course nobody forced Boyle to use the SI-2k without optical viewfinder, but he didn't used it because of the lack of it! He accepted it and mostly didn't even use EVF, but external monitors! George Lucas is a digital-freak, he even hates film-sets and uses CGI EVERYWHERE, Michael Mann wanted to use extreme available-light and large DoF - the best way to do that is a 2/3"-HD-camera - if it really looks well in the end... I personally thought that Miami Vice looked horrible.. but that's an artistic question. We shouldn't mix up artistic and technical quality, Slumdog was an artistic success, but it's technical quality had very little to do with 35mm. By the way, Apocalypto was shot on the Genesis, Fincher uses (or used) the Viper and the SI-2k is not a true 2k-camera, because it also uses color interpolation... Of course the JPG2000-compression isn't used for recording/postproduction (but specific RAW-formats), I was only going to show that HDTV and digital cinema are two different things, not just the few pixels 1980->2048. You can ask the engineers at ARRI or Panavision, their future digital cinema cameras will have 2k and more, not 1080p because they decided for those resolutions (DCI set the standard, digital projectors will have the same resolutions, 1080p-signals have to be interpolated somehow to 2k). F900, Viper etc. are HDTV-cameras that are usable for feature-film-production to a certain degree, but that's not their main purpose. Of course, marketing is saying something different... But that wasn't the point: We as photographers decide if we're satisfied with the results of EVF and for most pros this isn't the case yet! In Filmmaking they can use large external monitors ("tethered shooting") while photographers usually don't have this option outside the studio, they have to rely on a optical viewfinder! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 19, 2009 Share #373 Posted June 19, 2009 Some day, SLR optical viewfinders will be looked back upon with curiosity. Haha! Yes they'll remind us the good time of photography before it's killed by videography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2009 Share #374 Posted June 19, 2009 @jaapvChina has nothing in common with Japan! Many companies tried to save money with going to China, nobody became richer, most didn't survive and lost the fight against other manufacturers "Made in China". It's about efficiency, skill and technology, not wages. Know-How is directly transferred to China with international production networks, they introduce new products, solve problems in Germany, Switzerland or Japan and later offshore production/know-how to China. The "R10" will be (hopefully) a electronical/mechanical ambitous camera and not just a beautiful shell (like Hifi). My Macbook is a good example: it looks and feels like high-tech, if you look closer you notice that it's made by people who are lucky if they get enough food on the table after a 12h-day in the fab... The CNC-machining technology used is >20 years behind, I know many German machining shops who could manufacture it with tighter tolerances at twice the speed... All the cool design, production technology wasn't developed and won't be further developed in China (or other low-wage-countries). Sorry, but this is a sensitive topic for me, I've worked for the most powerful automotive supplier in the world and have seen with my own eyes what side-effects low-wage-countries have to social-standards, quality and also economics... Don't worry, I was not being specific. I just pointed out that looking to Japan for all the goodies to offer your customers would be quite narrow-minded. It was not meant as a dissertation on third (or second) world economies.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted June 19, 2009 Share #375 Posted June 19, 2009 This is a very interesting remark, as Leica had to develop a completely new central shutter for the S2 (see the current LFI) Now if that technology could be implemented in an EVIL camera (Smaller=faster)... In any case, the shutter needs a lot of thinking, if a large format new mirror-less camera have to be developed. A central shutter has a short movement inside the lens. I think you cannot use it on the focal plane position... there the movement (from opened to closed) is too large. The rotary disk has to be too large as well (remember, the cinema frame, academy aperture or super35, is smaller than 24x36). The electronic solution is the best, in theory, but it is a scanning process, running vertically, from top to bottom of the sensor... it doesn't work well on video... Research is being made for improving it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 19, 2009 Share #376 Posted June 19, 2009 For goodness sake, can't we have a thread that stays civil for once. Come on guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted June 19, 2009 Share #377 Posted June 19, 2009 I want to say good bye to all users of this forum. Something very unusual happened to me. For the first time in my life since the martial law in Poland in early eighties, my expression was totally censored =cut out in full. I did not use in any of my posts any arguments ad personam, racist, abusive etc etc. I did not use expletives. I can only surmise that a couple of posts above, in a joking manner I substituted a name of an apparel company (French Connection UK) FCUK for where a swear word would ususally be. Within minutes the post was removed without an explanation. An old admin fogey probably missed the joke. I guess I'm to old too for a victorian kindergarten. I was spending too much time here anyway. Back to real life. To all of you- Good Night and Good Luck. Those in a dire need can reach me at nugat@mac.com. Cheers Piotr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 19, 2009 Share #378 Posted June 19, 2009 The twin lens reflex also has almost disappeared. I think electronics will eventually push out many of the mechanical aspects of a typical camera. I've always wanted one of these but I've never even seen one. What a wonderful example of camera mechanics and engineering. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/87751-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-ff-m9-yet/?do=findComment&comment=937815'>More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 19, 2009 Share #379 Posted June 19, 2009 And here is the forerunner to the Leica S2 and R systems. So consider that we are a little past the equivalent of this stage of EVF development. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/87751-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-ff-m9-yet/?do=findComment&comment=937823'>More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 19, 2009 Share #380 Posted June 19, 2009 In any case, the shutter needs a lot of thinking, if a large format new mirror-less camera have to be developed. A central shutter has a short movement inside the lens. I think you cannot use it on the focal plane position... there the movement (from opened to closed) is too large. The rotary disk has to be too large as well (remember, the cinema frame, academy aperture or super35, is smaller than 24x36). The electronic solution is the best, in theory, but it is a scanning process, running vertically, from top to bottom of the sensor... it doesn't work well on video... Actually a fairly standard focal-plane shutter should work reasonably well. The only real difference between an EVIL camera and an SLR would be that the shutter was open by default; the total number of curtain actuations per cycle would even be the same, just in a different pattern. An electronic shutter was another option. This could be implemented with a CMOS sensor, but would create the rolling shutter effect you’ve mentioned. Or one could use an interline transfer CCD – that wouldn’t suffer from the rolling shutter effect, but would need to be read-out in the dark to avoid smearing. We would still need a mechanical shutter, which could be a rather simple one though. Incidentally, a central shutter would fill this role nicely, even when it would be overkill. Interline transfer CCDs only have the disadvantage that their full-well capacity is lower than that of full-frame transfer CCDs which is why they are commonly used in compact digicams, but not high-end cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.