S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06

[stunsworth]

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Gerard, thanks for the update.

[Overgaard]

Thanks Gérard,

 

That was a lot of valuable information from a no show

 

Trouble is, S2 or wait for the R9 successor? I'm very happy with the R9/DMR as it is but the S2 looks to feel right.

 

And yes, Hasselblad - Lower your prices!

[carstenw]

The Canon, Nikon ,Hassy and Hy6 have a handgrip included . So one should include the additional grip of the S2 if you want to compare.

 

I disagree. We should rather remove the handgrips from those cameras It is a true advantage to have an optional handgrip, since far from everyone needs one. This advantage should not just be thrown away in a comparison. Perhaps it would be more accurate to list two numbers for cameras with optional handgrips, so that each photographer can choose whether or not it is needed, and compare the relevant values. If I were buying an S2, it would be without handgrip, and so that is the weight I am interested in.

[stevelap]

Thanks Gerard.

 

I disagree. We should rather remove the handgrips from those cameras It is a true advantage to have an optional handgrip, since far from everyone needs one. This advantage should not just be thrown away in a comparison. Perhaps it would be more accurate to list two numbers for cameras with optional handgrips, so that each photographer can choose whether or not it is needed, and compare the relevant values. If I were buying an S2, it would be without handgrip, and so that is the weight I am interested in.

 

I agree Carsten. I'm sure the weight and dimensions of the grip will be available from Leica at some stage, for those interested in that option, but one of the advantages of the S2 design is that you can use the body without grip whenever less bulk is needed. Another join to seal of course, but that shouldn't be a problem.

[ynp]

Thank you for the report! It is a very good news that they are on schedule with the big camera.

 

I was able to see the S2 prototype at Photokina and I spend several minutes with the camera and the 180mm. lens. I did like how the camera balances in my hand with the grip.

 

If I decide to buy S2 I will be ordering the camera with the grip. Yes, it is not needed for casual or landscape shooting, but in studio, for portraits, it is a necessity. Try to shoot an H-series Hasselblad in a vertical position for 3 hours and your wrist and hand will be in pain.

 

Yevgeny

[haribo]

- that the date of availability was maintained for the end of September,

- that there would be another presentation of a possibly finalized S2 in Arles Photo Salon in July, and another one in Paris in beginning of September, just before launching,

 

 

Sounds again like lots of talk but no action. Yada, yada, yada...

Phase One, here I come.

[carstenw]

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Hey Harald, bad mood?

 

Leica did always say end of summer (late September seems like very late summer, but no matter), so I don't see what should change for anyone? I myself find the price of a Hasselblad H3DII-39 quite high, and this is supposedly the measuring stick for Leica, so I am hoping to pick up a Sinar back, as long as Sinar gives some sign of life in the next short while.

 

What MF camera do you have, Harald?

[haribo]

Hey Harald, bad mood?

 

Leica did always say end of summer (late September seems like very late summer, but no matter), so I don't see what should change for anyone? I myself find the price of a Hasselblad H3DII-39 quite high, and this is supposedly the measuring stick for Leica, so I am hoping to pick up a Sinar back, as long as Sinar gives some sign of life in the next short while.

 

What MF camera do you have, Harald?

 

Carsten, no not at all. I'm fine.

Frankly, I think Leica's approach is just idiotic. Why announcing something when you got absolutely nothing to show in the first place? (mock-ups don't count)

And to top this nonsense off, then proceed to tell the world it will take yet another year before there's anything 'ready' presentable. D'uh!

 

When it comes to digital backs Phase One is on top of the game and Hasselblad the runner up. Digital backs are what matter most in digital MF photography. Plus, either one of the two companies has fine glass available. Which means, for me there's no reason to wait for a product that has nothing to add to the party.

 

I don't have anything MF currently but will invest within the next couple months into a P40+ back, PhaseOne body and lenses.

(Guess, I have a few of my Leica M lenses up for sale soon;) )

 

harald

[georg]

Well, a Phamiya and a P40+ is propably a much bigger, bulkier, slower (fps, lenses and processing), less ergonomic, less-robust (at least lenses and body) crop-camera (it's a 645-system) than the S-System. if I don't want to use the back on a technical camera and as long the S-System won't have any serious flaws I wouldn't invest >10k$ in such a system.

 

I don't know why Leica doesn't keep their website updated and feed us with new information from time to time (the big crops from the test-shot are still only available in the LFI, the impressive shots from Photokina never left Leica at all) but they start a whole new system and people have to be prepared, the prototypes work and take pictures - they're not "mock-ups".

[mjh]

Frankly, I think Leica's approach is just idiotic. Why announcing something when you got absolutely nothing to show in the first place? (mock-ups don't count)

One might say it would have been idiotic (although not everyone would share that sentiment) had they announced the S2 with just a mock-up to show. Only in the real world, Leica had a working prototype to demo from the day they made the announcement at last year’s photokina. Since then, the S2 has been steadily getting closer to its final version. Many people have seen and handled the S2, there have been photographs published taken with the S2 and so on … Mock-ups? What parallel universe are you talking about?

 

When it comes to digital backs Phase One is on top of the game and Hasselblad the runner up. Digital backs are what matter most in digital MF photography.

Hasselblad has made it a point for quite some time now that what they are offering are complete cameras, even when those cameras still sport a detachable back than can be used with a view camera, for example. Even PhaseOne is offering a camera now, and not just backs. Buying a digital back from one vendor for attaching it to an analog MF body from another vendor used to be popular, but for how long will it continue to be? Why shouldn’t MF photographers buy complete cameras like everyone else?

[Overgaard]

It's a matter of soul in my opinion. I don't see Phase One has it. Hasselblad to some degree but the constant changing systems and the departure from "good ol' Hasselblad leather and brass" built make it a doubtful system to get into.

 

Anyways, I should be waiting for the R10 - but the S2 does look very tempting because it has the size of the R9/DMR with more picture size, ISO and megapixels. I guess if it's right, it will do the job for a very very long time. At least in my field no one will require bigger files than 37.5 MP. And based on my experience with the 10MP DMR combined with Leica glass, the 37.5 MP in the S2 might even seem like a lot more megapixel than it is. (I know some will disagree but I'm not impressed with Hasselblad IQ, except it's an impressive bunch of pixels. Real image quality is distinction in tones, colors, shape, space and distances; and that comes mainly from the lens).

 

For the record, Leica did state summer. Then Kaufmann said "the summer comes early" and now its - no surprise really - September/October.

 

There's still this first-hand rumor I got from Phase One that they will be getting Leica made lenses. Wonder if that will be the case - could change things in interesting ways.

[lct]

...Why shouldn’t MF photographers buy complete cameras like everyone else?

Because they own a lot of MF lenses already and they want to use them with their new bodies i guess. Will the S2 allow this?

[barjohn]

For a camera that had a working prototype a year ago don't you think 12+ months is a long time to just work out the bugs? Maybe the working prototype was not what it appeared to be. Since no one had access to the inner workings you have no idea what software and hardware was really in the body. Also since you didn't get to keep files you have no idea what was really in the files either.

[haribo]

One might say it would have been idiotic (although not everyone would share that sentiment) had they announced the S2 with just a mock-up to show. Only in the real world, Leica had a working prototype to demo from the day they made the announcement at last year’s photokina. Since then, the S2 has been steadily getting closer to its final version. Many people have seen and handled the S2, there have been photographs published taken with the S2 and so on … Mock-ups? What parallel universe are you talking about?

 

Mock-up, prototype ... who cares. The camera was and is still not ready. Leica knows that otherwise they wouldn't have said that it would take them another year to roll it out.

Now it's middle of June and Leica still doesn't have a final model to show. Or why do they still exhibit in Paris the same blah as they did 8.5 months ago at the Photokina?

Considering the deadline they set for themselves is just a mere 3 months away, don't you think they should have at least a few 'final version' models ready for promotion purposes?????

 

One should think so for a show like the one in Paris. It's not Timbuktu where it wouldn't matter, or is it. That kinda stuff makes me wonder if they are actually anywhere near to being close to final stage.

 

Hasselblad has made it a point for quite some time now that what they are offering are complete cameras, even when those cameras still sport a detachable back than can be used with a view camera, for example. Even PhaseOne is offering a camera now, and not just backs. Buying a digital back from one vendor for attaching it to an analog MF body from another vendor used to be popular, but for how long will it continue to be? Why shouldn’t MF photographers buy complete cameras like everyone else?

 

Please re-read my post. I spoke about buying a system from Phase One, the digital back, body and lenses. I'd call that a complete camera.

[haribo]

Because they own a lot of MF lenses already and they want to use them with their new bodies i guess. Will the S2 allow this?

 

That is pretty much a mute point. Older MF lenses, made for film, have little chance to live up to the standards current sensor quality demands.

Many pro photographers who used to just slap a db on their 'old' film MF cameras are on a dead end road. And they know it.

[haribo]

Well, a Phamiya and a P40+ is propably a much bigger, bulkier, slower (fps, lenses and processing), less ergonomic, less-robust (at least lenses and body) crop-camera (it's a 645-system) than the S-System. if I don't want to use the back on a technical camera and as long the S-System won't have any serious flaws I wouldn't invest >10k$ in such a system.

 

I don't know why Leica doesn't keep their website updated and feed us with new information from time to time (the big crops from the test-shot are still only available in the LFI, the impressive shots from Photokina never left Leica at all) but they start a whole new system and people have to be prepared, the prototypes work and take pictures - they're not "mock-ups".

 

Well, if you look at the S2 as a MF camera, the S2 is even worse of a crop-camera than the P40+. Period.

If you look at it as a 35mm camera on steroids, the S2 makes even less sense. Early next year Canon will release the 1DS Mark IV with 30+ MP. For probably half the money the S2 will cost.

(Which makes the S2 less of a choice for Pros but more of a new status symbol rich amateurs can take pictures with.)

 

Regarding "bigger, bulkier, slower (fps, lenses and processing)" ... it all depends on what you're doing with the camera.

(speaking of fps, sport photographers heads up! The new and improved Canon 1D Mark IV will come out this September)

 

Doubt that 'bigger und bulkier' will be such a difference. Plus, it is not a rangefinder camera that one would lug around town all day long. So, who cares.

"Faster lenses and such", again, we are not talking rangefinder photography. For commercial/advertising photography a narrow depth of field is not always desirable. Well, most of the time it's not desired at all. That's why pros generally shoot advertising work around f8.

[haribo]

One might say it would have been idiotic (although not everyone would share that sentiment)...

 

Here's a question for you.

Let's say you own a company and came up with a brilliant, new idea for a product. Would you go ahead and announce that brilliant, paradigm changing idea to the world without actually having all your ducks in a row????

 

I'm pretty sure you would not do that.

Why? Because you wouldn't want to give the competition even a day's worth - not to mention a full year! - of a head start to come up with something that will hurt your sales.

No sire, you would want to own that market for as long as possible.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'd say "idiotic" is the right word/sentiment here.

[mooky]

"Here's a question for you.

Let's say you own a company and came up with a brilliant, new idea for a product. Would you go ahead and announce that brilliant, paradigm changing idea to the world without actually having all your ducks in a row???? - haribo"

 

 

Oh boy - how many posts are there like this??? How many years past would Leica NEVER SAY A THING about what they were up to????

 

Now they do and people aren't satisfied or don't like what Leica says or how they do things. Too bad - get over it - you don't know how lucky we are now compared to what it was like - it's a night and day difference. Smile and enjoy, or don't use or buy it when it comes available.

[haribo]

"Here's a question for you.

Let's say you own a company and came up with a brilliant, new idea for a product. Would you go ahead and announce that brilliant, paradigm changing idea to the world without actually having all your ducks in a row???? - haribo"

 

 

Oh boy - how many posts are there like this??? How many years past would Leica NEVER SAY A THING about what they were up to????

 

Now they do and people aren't satisfied or don't like what Leica says or how they do things. Too bad - get over it - you don't know how lucky we are now compared to what it was like - it's a night and day difference. Smile and enjoy, or don't use or buy it when it comes available.

 

"you don't know how lucky we are now compared to what it was like" .... give me a break! Who cares?!?

 

You know what, here's what we'll do. You stay happy as long Leica keeps talking, and I'll get happy when Leica starts doing.

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[sdai]

Peace, folks ... Leica knew for sure that nobody would make a tweener camera like the S2 'cause if anybody do, it happened LONG time ago. Hasselblad is not interested, Mamiya is not interested, needless to say, Canon, Nikon and cohorts aren't interested at all too.

 

Even the ugliest woman could find a man, whatever happens I'm sure someone will buy one or may be two.

 

In a very unlikely event, I hope Michael could do a roundup of the S2 and its major "competitors" in the market. All I want to know is ... which camera takes the technically best picture, then we come back to talk ...