jaapv Posted April 25, 2009 Share #81 Posted April 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It makes me feel that Leica has made the right decision by regarding the S2 mainly as a technology platform. It is clear that a profession like photography has been much harder hit by the current depression than Leica's traditional amateur customer base like the proverbial doctors and lawyers that are far more economically secure, even in times of recession. There is a pressing need to get an S2 based R10 on the market for that customer group. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 25, 2009 Posted April 25, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted April 25, 2009 Share #82 Posted April 25, 2009 Why do you post here? Because I use Leica reflex equipment, some have mentioned that they have benefitted from my experience, as I have benefitted from the experience of others who use similar equipment and who have similar goals. If you'll notice I've also mentioned areas where the equipment and service could stand improvement in keeping with the company's past and apparent future emphasis on highest possible precision and image quality. My criticism has been based on actually using the equipment as intended instead of faulting the company for not playing the CaNikon game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 25, 2009 Share #83 Posted April 25, 2009 Because I use Leica reflex equipment, some have mentioned that they have benefitted from my experience, as I have benefitted from the experience of others who use similar equipment and who have similar goals. If you'll notice I've also mentioned areas where the equipment and service could stand improvement in keeping with the company's past and apparent future emphasis on highest possible precision and image quality.My criticism has been based on actually using the equipment as intended instead of faulting the company for not playing the CaNikon game. Fair enough reason to post as I'm sure you can answer lots of specific questions. So can I. I have actually handled the S2 and asked many questions about it at PhotoExpo last year. I expect to be shooting with an M8 tomorrow although that is mostly just out of curiosity. But most of my concerns on this thread have nothing to do with how the gear will work, but has to do with competition and what price I feel that commercial photographers will be willing to pay. I'd feel pretty competent on this subject even if I had never seen the S2. I'm assuming the S2 will work as well as Leica promotes it to be and that they'll provide the complete system and first class support. But 2009 is a tough time to bring any new system to the market. What Leica ends up charging and how many they need to sell to make a profit is something I won't try to guess. The problem the S2 and all MF gear has is that that photographers are really getting pinched from the bad economy, they may already have most of the gear they need, and the quality and versatility of 35mm keeps getting better while the prices for it keeps dropping. I'd hate to be in Leica's shoes trying to make a road map for the S2 considering they may have few options to reduce costs and keep it an actual German Leica. On the other hand, maybe they've done a lot of marketing research and know a lot about the potential market for the S2. If so my concerns will turn out to be baseless. If they are slow at bringing out lenses and accessories, if the camera is quirky or unreliable, and if service takes more than a week or so, then everyone knows it won't fly in the pro market. Re. CANikon game... What game would that be? Now I've reached the point where instead of worrying about the future of the S2, I'm living in my "girl and Ferrari world"... too bad I'm getting so old that it's just a fantasy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 25, 2009 Share #84 Posted April 25, 2009 What game would that be? The one of substituting convenience for excellence. Make enough of these compromises and you get 'adequate' image quality instead of optimum. For example: AF is pretty good as long as the focus points are in the right place for the composition you want; if not the choices you have are to accept the composition the camera works best with, or use focus-lock-recompose which even Canon recommends against with shallow DOF, or struggle to focus manually with a viewfinder optimized for AF. Another example: optical VR or IS, which adds many air/glass surfaces to the lens and its proper function assumes the IS (VR) unit will be off-center. Off-center optical components degrade off-axis image quality and additional air/glass surfaces increase internal reflections, resulting in lower color saturation and increased flare. "Fix" the lower saturation in software and you lose some tonal gradation. A third example: "fixing" lens distortion in software. You're going to lose fine detail this way. All these convenience features will improve the odds of a technically good photo for the average photographer, but will also reduce the optimum image quality the system is capable of. Your 5DII is certainly capable of adequate image quality, as you've reminded us on numerous occasions, but optimum is out of reach after all those compromises. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 25, 2009 Share #85 Posted April 25, 2009 The one of substituting convenience for excellence. Make enough of these compromises and you get 'adequate' image quality instead of optimum. For example: AF is pretty good as long as the focus points are in the right place for the composition you want; if not the choices you have are to accept the composition the camera works best with, or use focus-lock-recompose which even Canon recommends against with shallow DOF, or struggle to focus manually with a viewfinder optimized for AF. Another example: optical VR or IS, which adds many air/glass surfaces to the lens and its proper function assumes the IS (VR) unit will be off-center. Off-center optical components degrade off-axis image quality and additional air/glass surfaces increase internal reflections, resulting in lower color saturation and increased flare. "Fix" the lower saturation in software and you lose some tonal gradation. A third example: "fixing" lens distortion in software. You're going to lose fine detail this way. All these convenience features will improve the odds of a technically good photo for the average photographer, but will also reduce the optimum image quality the system is capable of. Your 5DII is certainly capable of adequate image quality, as you've reminded us on numerous occasions, but optimum is out of reach after all those compromises. That's a game? And you are the one who determines the meaning of excellence? Maybe having 10 frames per second defines excellence for somebody. Maybe a 17mm TS-E lens is excellence for another. I think all manufacturers make choices based on what the market wants and will pay for. I think your entire line of reasoning of adequate images vs. optimum images is kind of wacky. Either the camera serves your needs or it doesn't. Either the picture moves you or it doesn't. Additionally, we usually are viewing images after something non-optimal has been done to them such as printing or reduction to use on a computer screen. Now that will reduce detail and contrast. (Brightness range.) Well, you are entitled to your opinions. I disagree with some of them. I chalk it up to the difference between theory and practice. I even posted an example on another thread of distorting an image back and forth a total of six times and the image quality barely changed. And AF will focus more precisely for some high res systems due to insufficient magnification limiting one's ability to judge focus via the optical viewfinder. Some cameras have 10x magnified live view which is more precise than anything on any Leica reflex. In any case, presumably you're happy with the quality of you're images and I'm happy with the quality of mine. I never had a desire to be a perfectionist. For my business, I'm more into production, efficiency, and maximizing my income. The things I try to achieve in my commercial work would not be substantially improved in my eyes by having more resolution. I'm much more into manipulating the lighting and composition as my contribution to the final product. So if anyone ever sees my 24x36 inch prints, please look at them from at least a couple of feet away. Here are some links to the examples I posted previously of distortion and c/a correction tests: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/81033-leica-digital-corrections.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/81033-leica-digital-corrections-2.html At this point, Leica does not make or sell any reflex cameras or lenses for reflex cameras. And whatever reflex or EVF gear they make in the future is likely to be AF. So what does it matter what kind of quality they are capable of if they can't sell enough of them to make a profit? Maybe Sigma could make lenses that would kill the 50 1.4 Summilux if they could find enough buyers willing to pay $3500+ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 25, 2009 Share #86 Posted April 25, 2009 To most of you posting in this thread: Reading through all this wishful thinking and hopes etc, etc I only can say: Keep on dreaming! The few others, who made their negative experiences with Leica, the companies ignorance and arrogance and still see this continuing, we are doing great shots meanwhile with very bad FF 35 systems or maybe a little bit better shots with existing MF systems like Phase or Hasselblad. But yes - definitely far below the quality level we all can expect from this wonderful S System. Sorry if I did not understand this from the beginning and sorry that I cannot feel getting warm with an arrogant company anymore, who let me stand out in the rain several times - truely my fault Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted April 25, 2009 Share #87 Posted April 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) And yet you're posting nearly every day about the S2 since it's presentation in the Leica-forum. You've never seen it, never handled it. You found great systems that are "far superior" to the S2 or any Leica months ago but you didn't buy them, instead you continue to post here about the S2... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 25, 2009 Share #88 Posted April 25, 2009 The few others, who made their negative experiences with Leica, the companies ignorance and arrogance and still see this continuing, we are doing great shots meanwhile with very bad FF 35 systems or maybe a little bit better shots with existing MF systems like Phase or Hasselblad. Peter, I know you have been soured by your experiences with Leica, but you must take into consideration that the number of Leica customers that have a diametrically opposite view is immense far larger. . Please point me to the post in this thread that even implies there is something inferior about other systems. You seem to forget that many members use multiple systems beside Leica. As for yor repeated assertion that Leica is " arrogant" I do not know where that notion comes from In my experience and that of -again- many others they are about the most friendly and open camera company around.. As an example, an e-mail I received yesterday: Sehr geehrter Herr V******, vielen Dank für Ihr Einverständnis zur Reparatur Ihrer Kamera, sowie für Ihr Einverständnis, dass wir das Vulkanit-Leder verwenden dürfen. Zhalung erfolgt wunschgemäß, nach Fertigstellung der Reparatur, per Kreditkarte. Vielen Dank für Ihren Auftrag. Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards Andrea Frankl Leica Camera AG Customer Service Solmser Gewerbepark 8 / D-35606 Solms / Germany Leica Camera AG / andrea.frankl*leica-camera.com Telephone +49(0)6442-208-189 / Fax +49(0)6442-208-339 Alles was eine gute Kamera braucht / Everything a good camera needs: www.m.leica-camera.com Please note that she thanks me for accepting a courtesy offer by Leica to fit Vulcanite for free to my camera.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John66 Posted April 25, 2009 Share #89 Posted April 25, 2009 The one of substituting convenience for excellence. Make enough of these compromises and you get 'adequate' image quality instead of optimum. For example: AF is pretty good as long as the focus points are in the right place for the composition you want; if not the choices you have are to accept the composition the camera works best with, or use focus-lock-recompose which even Canon recommends against with shallow DOF, or struggle to focus manually with a viewfinder optimized for AF. Strange, I didn't notice any substitution of excellence for convenience when I viewed the 200 or so winners of 'Wildlife Photographer of the Year' at the Natural History Museum in London. Both the technical and aesthetic quality were quite stunning, but I don't recall a single picture taken with any kind of Leica. These photographers, mostly hardcore wildlife shooters, stop at nothing to get the best possible picture - which by nature is always a balance between aesthetic perfection. technical excellence, equipment that gives you the best chance of getting the shot, and equipment that is reliable (so forget any digital Leica, and the R9 was not that dependable). If we concentrate only on technical excellence, then we would all be shooting Kodak Technical Pan 25 on a 10x8 view camera, cemented into a one ton block of concrete. If ever there was a compromise, it would be shooting on a 'convenient' 35mm system, or worse still, a cropped 35mm system. Thank goodness there are people like AlanG around to bring perspective to some of the nonsense written on these forums. His posts are always polite, rational and very well thought out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 25, 2009 Share #90 Posted April 25, 2009 Both Andrea Frankl and Sonja Becker are unfailingly helpful. I was delighted with the service I received just recently on two cameras and five lenses, the more so after the rumpus I caused over the delayed shutter wind... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 25, 2009 Share #91 Posted April 25, 2009 Strange, I didn't notice any substitution of excellence for convenience when I viewed the 200 or so winners of 'Wildlife Photographer of the Year' at the Natural History Museum in London. If you compare the photos made with the DMR with those made with the Canon 1DsII you'll see that they are quite comparable, the biggest difference being that the information density of the DMR files is considerably higher such that it takes about 50% more pixels in the 1DsII files to get an equivalent-quality image. Both the technical and aesthetic quality were quite stunning, but I don't recall a single picture taken with any kind of Leica. If there are hundreds of thousands of non-Leica dSLR cameras in use and only a few thousand DMRs, the law of averages alone suggests that you'll rarely see any DMR photos. These photographers, mostly hardcore wildlife shooters, stop at nothing to get the best possible picture - which by nature is always a balance between aesthetic perfection. technical excellence, equipment that gives you the best chance of getting the shot, and equipment that is reliable (so forget any digital Leica, and the R9 was not that dependable). Action photos are prized more than good composition. It's a rare wildlife photo that shows much more than a simple, safe composition (i.e., make the background disappear). Do you have personal experience with R9 problems? Aside from operator error my R8 & DMR have not had any problems. If we concentrate only on technical excellence, then we would all be shooting Kodak Technical Pan 25 on a 10x8 view camera, cemented into a one ton block of concrete. If ever there was a compromise, it would be shooting on a 'convenient' 35mm system, or worse still, a cropped 35mm system. How many wildlife photographers could use this camera? I'm looking for technical excellence within the limits imposed by having to carry the camera in what is often rough terrain (something that most of the hardcore wildlife shooters referenced above avoid). Imagine carrying a 600mm f/4 L IS, Gitzo CF tripod, Wimberly head and Better Beamer-equipped flash more than 100 meters from the car. Your hardcore wildlife shooters don't, they're carrying at least twice the weight I am with the R8/DMR and 560mm f/6.8 Telyt. Thank goodness there are people like AlanG around to bring perspective to some of the nonsense written on these forums. His posts are always polite, rational and very well thought out. As I've written many times, IMHO his equipment and techniques are well-suited to the limited scope of the work he does, and I don't fault him for this. It's mass production photography. Very mainstream, rarely pushing any boundaries. That's a game? And you are the one who determines the meaning of excellence? Alan, the word you keep using to describe your 5DII's output is adequate. Adequate seems to be good enough for you. Maybe having 10 frames per second defines excellence for somebody. That's production photography; the equivalent of an infinite number of chimpanzees pounding on an infinite number of keyboards to produce the works of Shakespeare. I think all manufacturers make choices based on what the market wants and will pay for. Yes that's correct. The question is less one of "right" or "wrong", it's more about suitability for the intended purpose. I think your entire line of reasoning of adequate images vs. optimum images is kind of wacky. Either the camera serves your needs or it doesn't. You're entitled to your opinions. Leica's M and R cameras have never been about being "adequate", the goal has been excellence. Either the picture moves you or it doesn't. Additionally, we usually are viewing images after something non-optimal has been done to them such as printing or reduction to use on a computer screen. Now that will reduce detail and contrast. (Brightness range.) Well, you are entitled to your opinions. I disagree with some of them. I chalk it up to the difference between theory and practice. I even posted an example on another thread of distorting an image back and forth a total of six times and the image quality barely changed. Unfortunately for me I can recognize the loss of quality the distortions cause. That you don't see the loss is probably a blessing in disguise. And AF will focus more precisely for some high res systems due to insufficient magnification limiting one's ability to judge focus via the optical viewfinder. Please refer to my previous post on this subject. I wrote that AF and the other conveniences will result in better technical quality for the average photographer. I'm not interested in average photos. The low magnification of modern cameras' viewfinders is the problem, and 10x live view focussing is as useless for my subjects and compositions as AF is. I never had a desire to be a perfectionist. Yes that's clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 25, 2009 Share #92 Posted April 25, 2009 wildlightphoto, I'm not sure if you shoot only for yourself or if you take on assignments. But I will tell you that as a businessperson, I do not look at myself as a photographer. My business is satisfying the needs of my clients. And to that end being a perfectionist would be counter productive. Fortunately, I have been able to understand my clients' needs, interpret those needs into photographs, and earn a very good living doing that for more than 30 years. Should I find that any of my clients is looking at my photographs so critically for the tiny technical issues that I consider to be inconsequential, but you consider to be paramount, I'll send them to you as you'll be able to photograph their homes and buildings better than I can. Yes and everyone who shoots ten frames per second is like a chimpanzee pounding on a typewriter. There apparently is only one pure way to take a picture and they forgot to explain that to me in my three years of study at RIT (BS in Professional Photography 1974) and one year at the Polytechnic of Central London. But now that I've read your posts, I understand photography on a deeper level and will try my best to meet your higher expectations. Thank you very much for the help. (By the way, one of my professors only accepted assignments shot on 4x5, then examined every print with a loupe to see how well we spotted them. You would have loved him.) I think I'll call up David Burnett and give him a piece of my mind for using a Holga on this National Geographic assignment: http://www.davidburnett.com/gallery.html?gallery=Orlando-for%20Nat%27l%20Geographic&skipno=0¤tIndex=1 David is one of the very best photographers I know and his work is nothing like mine or yours. Maybe you should have the perspective that your approach to photography makes you special and if we all had that view, where would that leave you? Anyway, when it comes to the S2, we're all pretty ignorant. So what do your posts and experience have to do with it? P.S. Just because magnified live view won't help you focus does not mean it doesn't help others focus. And I find IS pretty handy when shooting out of a helicopter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted April 25, 2009 Share #93 Posted April 25, 2009 Strange, I didn't notice any substitution of excellence for convenience when I viewed the 200 or so winners of 'Wildlife Photographer of the Year' at the Natural History Museum in London. Both the technical and aesthetic quality were quite stunning, but I don't recall a single picture taken with any kind of Leica. These photographers, mostly hardcore wildlife shooters, stop at nothing to get the best possible picture - which by nature is always a balance between aesthetic perfection. technical excellence, equipment that gives you the best chance of getting the shot, and equipment that is reliable (so forget any digital Leica, and the R9 was not that dependable). If we concentrate only on technical excellence, then we would all be shooting Kodak Technical Pan 25 on a 10x8 view camera, cemented into a one ton block of concrete. If ever there was a compromise, it would be shooting on a 'convenient' 35mm system, or worse still, a cropped 35mm system. Thank goodness there are people like AlanG around to bring perspective to some of the nonsense written on these forums. His posts are always polite, rational and very well thought out. Alan, you clever fellow you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 25, 2009 Share #94 Posted April 25, 2009 And yet you're posting nearly every day about the S2 since it's presentation in the Leica-forum. You've never seen it, never handled it.You found great systems that are "far superior" to the S2 or any Leica months ago but you didn't buy them, instead you continue to post here about the S2... So what are you trying to say? Should I shut up because you wish so? This is a free forum and I can post my opinion as everybody else can. Further my process for deciding for a new MF system is totally up to my responsibility, or can I expect you to give me money for this system? I do not think so! And I can just go and change this process as it becomes necessary and makes sense. I am luckily not in the stress of needing to buy today, I have some more months and I am comparing and watching carefully. As anybody else would do. But I most probably will buy late summer. And if not its also my own decision and should not care you even a nut. BTW how many people posting here do you think will really buy a S2? Or even have bought another Leica? Not too many I would say! If you get tired of reading this, then there is IGNORE! I anyway got very tired of you standing around and telling us how great Leica is and how bad all other companies are. This is for sure the wrong attitude and will not help convert the opinion of somebody who was pissed by Leica several times. Remember one thing - neither you or I or anybody else will change anything by posting here, but such a forum should be a place where you can freely exchange useful thoughts an have - even very - controversial discussions. But folks like you just do not fit into this open minded way of thinking - I feel very sorry for you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 25, 2009 Share #95 Posted April 25, 2009 Peter, I know you have been soured by your experiences with Leica, but you must take into consideration that the number of Leica customers that have a diametrically opposite view is immense far larger. . Please point me to the post in this thread that even implies there is something inferior about other systems. You seem to forget that many members use multiple systems beside Leica. As for yor repeated assertion that Leica is " arrogant" I do not know where that notion comes from In my experience and that of -again- many others they are about the most friendly and open camera company around.. As an example, an e-mail I received yesterday: Please note that she thanks me for accepting a courtesy offer by Leica to fit Vulcanite for free to my camera.... You obviously had good experiences, I had bad ones So just be happy that you were on the lucky side of this company, I was on the dar side meanwhile. But just do not try to convince me after all this mess with Leica, it just will not work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted April 25, 2009 Share #96 Posted April 25, 2009 Peter, every second week you are very interested in the S2, and every second week you spend a lot of energy putting down Leica. Why don't you just observe what happens? Not so many more months to wait now. If you were completely against any Leica in your future, you would not be here, or? You just want to see that it is what Leica promises. So do many others. You wait, expecting it will not be. I wait, expecting it will be. So what. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 25, 2009 Share #97 Posted April 25, 2009 I think I'll call up David Burnett and give him a piece of my mind for using a Holga on this National Geographic assignment: Orlando-for Nat'l Geographic | 0 | | David Burnett -- Photojournalist David is one of the very best photographers I know and his work is nothing like mine or yours. Alan you are mis-reading my posts. Perhaps I should BOLD my posts, or type more slowly. I wrote: The question is less one of "right" or "wrong", it's more about suitability for the intended purpose. My goals are not the same as yours, that's not to say one is right or wrong, but those who don't understand and recognize the advantages and disadvantages different tools offer will have a harder time reaching their goals. My equipment has disadvantages that you cannot accept for your work, your equipment has features and disadvantages that work against me. I'm not attacking your mother, I'm just illustrating the conditions where the CaNikon designs compromise optimum image quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 25, 2009 Share #98 Posted April 25, 2009 Peter, every second week you are very interested in the S2, and every second week you spend a lot of energy putting down Leica. Why don't you just observe what happens? Not so many more months to wait now. If you were completely against any Leica in your future, you would not be here, or? You just want to see that it is what Leica promises. So do many others. You wait, expecting it will not be. I wait, expecting it will be. So what. Right, I am of course interested, I always said that. But whenever this silly hype comes up that everything is wonderful and has always been wonderful I take the freedom to remind others that this is wrong. Whatever they take out of it is up to them. As I said there is IGNORE as a wonderful function. And BTW - I am not even expecting that the S2 will be bad, nor that Leica will fail. Only issue - but this is a big one - if Leica can hold up to what they are expected to - because they even did not really promise anything so far. Most of you followers just anticipate they promised, but this is not the case, they just made some vague statements in best case Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 25, 2009 Share #99 Posted April 25, 2009 Alan you are mis-reading my posts. Perhaps I should BOLD my posts, or type more slowly. You know I've been shooting for a long time. I've used almost every kind of gear in many kinds of situations. I've even examined my slides under a Leitz Ortholux microscope. I really think I understand what I am trying to achieve and why I choose the gear that I choose. (And I have more gear than you know.) I've been doing a fine art project that often uses panoramic images as large as 1.5 gigabytes in size so they are surely more detailed than anything you do with a single shot. But I'm also sure they wouldn't appeal to you and perhaps you'd find technical faults in them also. Maybe you should re-read your posts and try to figure out what is really going on, because I'm obviously not capable of that. I think it is wonderful if a manual focus camera and certain lenses give you what you consider ideal results. But I thought this thread was about the pricing pressure that may be on the S2. I think way back when, that's what my comments were about. I'm totally lost now as perhaps we've moved to the Bizarro Leica forum. What's going on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 25, 2009 Share #100 Posted April 25, 2009 Folks, I think that all this discussion here - including mine - is just to religious about different individual needs, wishes etc. I will stay out of this and no longer waste my time, may others do so if they wish Pure wast of energy, which I better put into my projects plus finding the right MF system for these projects BTW - never saw a forum where open discussion is as badly perceived and almost impossible as in this forum here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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