Future of the R system

[cpclee]

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Over in another thread there is a discussion about the viability of the R system and Leica's commitment to it going forward. My personal prediction is that the R system will in fact become more important in Leica's future longterm strategy than it had been. Here are the reasons.

 

Technological uncertainty: Current innovations in sensor and electronics technology occur more rapidly in the SLR segment of the market. As such, continuing to have an SLR system gives Leica protection against unforeseen technological changes. A case in point is with respect to the current step towards digital. It was not until very recently (2004) that the viability of a digital RF was assured, despite the fact that DSLRs had been around for quite some time. This will continue to be the case going forward, when the R line will lead the way in incoporating new innovations (FF, or post-Bayer sensors) while these innovations slowly diffuse into the M line.

 

Changing demographics of 35mm shooters: In the last days of film the R line was a tough proposition. Those who demanded the highest image quality were shooting medium or large format, while those preferring the compactness and speed of 35mm were more drawn to the automated bodies from Japanese competition. To many people the R line lacked a compelling selling point. But that has changed. Today, many people who shoot with highend DSLRs were yesterday's medium or large format shooters. Many of these people are studio, landscape or fine art photographers who don't need automation for their work. As such, it is no longer critical for Leica to be competitive in terms of bells and whistles. Rather, we can expect Leica to try and capture a larger share of these traditional MF/LF shooters going forward. Unlike traditional 35mm shooters these people can be attracted to a system lacking in automation but promising superior image quality. This may explain Leica's recent acquisition of a controlling share in Sinar--as far as the R line is concerned, going forward Leica will try and make it more MF/LF-like in terms of features, strong points and clientele. The R line will become less and less of a competitor to the Canons and Nikons of the world and will compete more directly with high-end medium format digital. This wasn't possible back in the days of film because the medium itself was the limit, but in the world of digital a 24mmx36mm sensor area provides enough in the way of resolution to entice even the most dicerning photograpthers.

 

There are signs that this is already happening. Leica's acquisition of Sinar brings them not only the expertise in digital but also the know-how and distribution for selling to the MF/LF market. There are rumors from Photokina that the next R will feature a "full-frame or larger" sensor area (which can only be interepted as a 31mmx31mm square format using the same image circle). Imacon and Leica's parting ways must be partly due to Hasselblad perceiving the looming longterm threat that Leica presents. I also expect Leica to begin modernizing the wideangle primes in the R line. In the last of the film days Leica's priority was with zooms; going forward the primes will become important again. The 24/2.8 lens has been discontinued; as I write this, B&H also no longer lists the 28/2.8. My speculation is we can see modernized replacements for these lenses very soon.

[k_g_wolf ✝]

A very interesting contribution, thx for sharing these thoughts.

 

Hope, LEICA- people are reading them as well.

 

 

 

Best

[stunsworth]

There are rumors from Photokina that the next R will feature a "full-frame or larger" sensor area (which can only be interepted as a 31mmx31mm square format using the same image circle)...

 

Why's that? I think most people's interpretation of a full frame sensor in an R10 would be 36mm x 24mm.

 

If medium format shooters are switching to digital - which current prices would seem to indicate - how many of them are going to switch to Leica? I don't think that the numbers would support the idea that this by itself would be enough to regenerate the R system.

[earleygallery]

In the last days of film the R line was a tough proposition. In the last of the film days Leica's priority was with zooms; going forward the primes will become important again.

 

 

:eek:

 

Where's film gone?

[rsolomon]

interesting comments ...... however, i'm looking at the long-term as a series of short terms, thats the way our world is today, from corporations needing to deleiver results quarterly to the digial world being a "throw-away and buy next generation".

 

In my for the R system to continue on being the top a few things need to happen, BUT the first is to deleiver the V 1.3 firmware. This is the deleiverable leica needs to do to show they can maintain the company in the fast paced digital world.

 

leica ofcourse is a long-term investment and i am a current R owner with the DMR, i want that investment to be "renewed" with a firmware that continues exploit the equipment to deliver the finest quality with ease of use.

 

At this time in my opinion why would there be an R10...Full Frame? - who cares ?.... and wouldn't that require a new back not an R10.. i do want focus confirmation but beleive that could be done with the R9...... can you really improve on the R9 ?

[leicar7]

Chris,

 

Do you mean 31mm x 31mm, or 36x36? The latter would stay within the image circle of existing R lenses.

 

One issue with a larger sensor in the vertical dimension is the requirement for a larger mirror, mirror box, and pentaprism. There will be additional engineering required to damp the larger mirror with low dB and maintain the mirror's alignment. This could be an interesting exercise for Leica to keep the shakes and slap to Leica-acceptable levels. And good viewing brightness.

[john_f]

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Chris,

 

I just came back from a Leica demo day. The Leica rep confirmed that the Elmarit-R 28mm has been discontinued (a few months ago apparently). He could not confirm whether or not Leica would be introducing a new 28mm R lens. According to him, the two best selling lenses in the R line right now are 1) the Vario-Elmar-R 21-35mm Asph and 2) the Vario-Elmarit-R 28-90mm Asph. In general, sales of Leica wide-angle prime lenses are more concentrated in the M line than in the R line.

 

We talked at length about the M8, and also the R9+DMR. I did mention the R10 to him. The Leica rep confirmed that work on the R10 project had already started some time ago, but that - in his own opinion - Leica's first priority right now was to get the M8 to market ASAP. Once that's done, it would be fair to assume that priorities would shift more towards the R10 project. When asked about a possible date for the R10, the Leica rep estimated Photokina 2008, but not before (a fairly conservative estimate). I did ask about the DMR firmware update v1.3. I was told that it should be ready in December.

 

I did not ask about the possible specs of a future R10 as it is still at the project level. In other words, anything is possible right now, but I do think that it will be "full-frame" 24x36mm (not a square format). I too would like to see focus confirmation in a future R10 (IMHO, a better approach for Leica than complete AF). A good way to improve upon the R9 would be with its light metering. The R9 does not use its "matrix metering" for flash metering. Another place for improvement would be the R9's HSS. Unlike modern top of the line D-SLRs, the R9's HSS feature is not fully automated. I also believe that a new approach to light metering will be required if Leica is to keep up with other D-SLRs. An improved "matrix" metering for both ambient and artificial lighting, which could measure both the quantity (exposure) and quality (white balance) of the light, would be a worthwhile improvement. Other possible improvements often talked about in the Customer Forum have to do with the viewfinder (brightness, contrast, magnification, HP, etc..). Just my two cents ...

 

Finally, I asked about the Sinar deal made between Leica Camera and Jenoptik (the owner of Sinar AG). The deal was announced just prior to Photokina (Sept 25). Strangely, the Sinar booth at Photokina had a big sign that read "Sinar AG - A Jenoptik Company". The Leica rep was somewhat puzzled as to the strategy behind Leica Camera's purchase of Sinar. Both the MF and LF markets are getting smaller and smaller and pros used to MF are indeed moving toward high-res "35mm format" D-SLR cameras. About Sinar's expertise in digital, I am not sure where it really lies. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the design of their digital backs often involved other outside firms, including Jenoptik and Kodak (sensors). Perhaps other members could provide info on this.

 

I came away with the definitive impression that the Leica M8 will be a tremendous success. The Leica rep mentioned that in more than 20 years, he had never seen such a huge demand for a Leica camera. He expects that even five months from now, the Leica M8 will still be on back order. Leica has been pleasantly surprised by the much larger than expected demand for the M8. And that's good news for Leica.

 

Best regards,

 

John F.

[mgcd]

John - Was that at CAMTEC? Was it Keith or the local Rep? I still haven't seen the M8 darn! I would be waiting a long time, if I were to expect it to show up in Indonesia...

 

Cheers,

[john_f]

Hello Conrad,

 

Yes, it was Keith at Camtec Photo in Old Montreal. They had both the M8 and the R9+DMR on demonstration. IMHO, the M8 felt right at home in my hands - it felt like a real M (I've been using M cameras for more than 25 years). Just the right size and weight. And it was not at all as noisy as some people wrote in articles - quite the contrary, very quiet!

 

I did get the impression that there were still many questions that needed answers. I suggested to Keith that Leica should consider adding an "FAQ" section in its M8 web page. BTW, it was still not clear as to whether or not the M8 could use SDHC cards! Until we can get a clear and definitive answer, we were told to stick to 2GB SD cards (there are some 4GB SD cards, but the 4GB size falls ouside the SD standard). A firmware update might be needed for SD (HC) cards higher than 4GB.

 

Wish you best of luck in getting your M8. It might take a while, but believe me, it will be well worth it !

 

Cheers,

John F.

[mgcd]

Thanks John, I look forward to it myself at some future date.

 

Cheers,

[wattsy]

Do you mean 31mm x 31mm, or 36x36? The latter would stay within the image circle of existing R lenses.

 

I don't think that it would. To fit a square within the existing image circle of an R lens, the side dimension of the square has to be less than the long dimension of the 35mm sized rectangle. In other words, the square has to have sides that are less than 36mm. 31mm x 31mm sounds about right. Having said all this, I think it very unlikely that Leica will bring out a camera with a 31mm x 31mm square sensor. For one thing, Leica lenses (including the lens hoods and internal baffles, etc.) are designed around the 35mm format. For another, I don't see what advantage a 31mm square sensor offers. Most commercial uses of images require a non-square image (7:5 is a commonly used format ratio). Also, unless you are going to print in a square format the captured image is going to have to be cropped. Once cropped, a 31mm square sensor will not offer any quality advantage over a conventional 35mm full frame sensor - if anything, you end up with a quality disadvantage.

[masjah]

Ian

 

Your are perfectly correct. The image circle is essentially defined by the diagonal of the frame. In the case of a "standard" 24mm x 36mm frame, the image circle has a diameter of 43.26mm. The maximum square format that would fit inside this is about 30.6mm. A 36mm x 36mm square format would be too big.

[leicar7]

I'm a dope, having not thought that, of course, "It's the diagonal, stupid!" for measuring the diameter of the image circle.

 

But, I agree that the desireability of a 31x31 sensor is unlikely, and I wouldn't buy one. If there is to be a larger sensor, it seems to me that the camera would have to have a switch to carve out a 24x36 portion when desired. I like 24x36 and don't have any reason to spend bucks on a whole new line of lenses and have to translate focal lengths to and from the 35mm equivalents.

 

If there has to be a larger sensor, my vote would be for 36x36, with a switch to select at least the square, and 24x36 vertical and horizontal formats. Other formats might be fit in, too.

 

Do users of the R and other SLRs really expect, though, that a larger sensor would be cool enough to bring N and C users to the R?

 

A larger sensor will require major changes to several aspects of the camera, and may obsolete some of the utility of existing lenses. For instance, wouldn't a larger sensor require a larger diameter lens mount? If so, would existing lenses be adaptable and maintain the aperture, ROM, and metering functions?

 

In other words, do we really want Leica inventing a new format between MF and 35mm?

 

This is not the era of Oscar Barnack, when there were no portable, multishot, small format cameras. It seems to me that across all formats, smallest to largest, there is a plethora of choice already, and a new format will be just one more among dozens.

 

What would it take for an R10 to appeal not only to existing users, but also to attract new users? FF sensor is one. Focus verification, or AF are other things some folks want (I personally am anti AF, because most of the pros I know don't use it except in very specific circumstances, and they focus manually on those lousy viewfinder screens.) (FV, maybe,... but the electronics for FV are almost as voluminous and for AF.)

One advantage I think Leica should exploit with their digital professional cameras is the simplicity of their controls, compared to many of the other makes. What suggestions might other forum readers have?

 

This is a rather important time for the R system and R users, because it is transition time. Should Leica go all out, as the rumor mill is speculating, and do something radically NEW? Or would a more conservative new FF camera be attractive to new users as well as current ones?

 

Not only am I interested in your ideas, but I would ask you to communicate them to Maike Harberts, the R system manager, or to Stefan Daniel. Leica needs to hear from the greatest possible number of current or potential R users about what you want from an all digital R camera and what you want in new R lenses.

 

Take care,

Tom Campbell

[gdb]

I would be very happy to contribute to the future of the R system, because I will certainly buy another DSLR from Leica. I miss my stolen R9/DMR VERY MUCH, and as I want to rebuild my equipment, I have to choose the way I am rebuilding it (economically speaking).

 

I prefer to concentrate on lenses first, which gives me time to wait and save for the R10, since the lenses can be used on Canon bodies. So, if I may make my modest contribution to all of our wishes for Leica, mine would be this:

 

- I would opt for the full frame sensor, since they are the creators of the 24x36 format, and I think it still is their "image de marque". Moreover, I my past years, I also used a Hasselblad, and the main drawback of the square format (at least for me), is that it is very difficult to "fill" the foreground. As I only shot slides, there was no possible cropping, and this made shooting more difficult to me.

 

- I would opt for focus confirmation which seems to me more interesting than autofocus. Autofocus is quite good on point and shoot cameras, but as soon as we want to control our shots more in depth, focus confirmation is more useful. After all, it is the same thing with light metering: when you choose the "A" or "S" program, you control your shot better than with the "P" program. For this reason, I would also wish that focus confirmation be disengaged if desired. My experience with a Leica R lens to Canon EOS body adapter with focus confirmation has been very instructive: focus is confirmed without any electronic connection between the lens and the body; and it works on every focusing zone of the Canon's viewfinder: not only in the center. This makes microprism and split-image systems purposeless and can be useful for focusing with darker apertures like f 4.5 or in low light situations.

 

- and I think that there is nothing to change on their lenses, but to put more detailed information in the ROM. I mean that all the data gathered for EACH lens by the time of its final controls be written in its "personal" ROM. At the most, it would require to change the ROM for one with a larger memory. Thus, the camera's software could immediately (or only as an option) correct everything: vignetting, distortion, apochromatic problems, and may be more.

 

Of course, this means that the software must be very quick, but large memory chips are no longer a problem. The main thing is of course that the software be upgradable with no modification of the camera. I think that in our fast growing computer possibilities, it would prevent the R10 from obsolescence...

 

Just my modest thoughts and hopes for a long life to Leica!

 

Cheers

Gérard

[cpclee]

Thanks John F. for the exciting information.

 

First of all, I'm not surprised that demand for the M8 has been so strong. People were wrong to extrapolate film M sales to predict digital M sales. Sales of new film Ms have been small largely because there is a vibrant market of used bodies. (I'd even venture to say that there are probably as many as 5 to 10 times more used Ms exchanging hands on any given day than new ones.) For the M8 it's a different story altogether. I expect the market for the M8 to eventually exceed that of film Ms simply because there is no cannibalization. You may say that digital is good for Leica because it promises a steady turnover.

 

I'm hoping that strong M sales will bring Leica lots of cash for R&D. The lack of cash had restricted Leica from making bolder moves for many years. In particular, I'm hoping the combination of improved cashflow and the Sinar acquisition will finally provide Leica what it needs to incorporate focus confirmation in the R10. (Sinar has experience in AF.) I agree that Leica doesn't need full AF, but I do think focus confirmation is critical to the R line's longterm success given the demographics of their clientele (average age is probably 50+) and the fact that digital magnifies focus errors. Take a look around and you'll find many 3rd party offerings for improving focus accuracy--there is certainly a demand! In my opinion if Leica really put their mind to it they should be able to engineer an intelligent focus assist system that is as speedy to use as AF. I daydream about a system that shows in the finder in which direction and how much you should turn the focus ring (i.e. triple arrow versus single arrow). Alternatively, they system can show the graphically the depth of field and the subject's relation to it.

 

I have to say Photokina 2008 seems very far away still. I was hoping the R10 could be ready much sooner. On the other hand, the time frame may suggest Leica is indeed considering something dramatically different than just an evolutionary change. In that case the wait will be quite worthwhile.

 

Regarding the discontinued primes, I'd be quite surprised if Leica doesn't eventually replace them with new designs. 28/2.8 seems quite essential to any self-respecting SLR line.

[pascal_meheut]

I have to say Photokina 2008 seems very far away still. I was hoping the R10 could be ready much sooner

 

Leica always said that they plan to have longer product cycle than Canon and the others and that the DMR was here for several years.

[Sandokan]

Even as a newbie to Leica I have my ha'penny worth to add.

 

I will be getting the DMR within the next 6 months as any new R10 etc. will be at least 2 years away. I am even newer to the M and have not decided if I buy a M8.

 

What would I like to see? Full frame and Focus Verification (auto focus was why I did NOT buy Nikon/Canon!). The electronics for FV should be in the body and so lenses would not need any changes. Full frame as that is what I am used to from film.

 

Leica's Biggest Problem: The insistance to not make anything obsolete. Full frame would either require new lenses to keep the anlge of incidence at the sensor small, or optics/electronics on the sensor to offset this - this is probably more costly and difficult to produce.If they get over this, why not a medium format digital camera with new lenses and body? I mean, who cares if a company who thinks just because it invented a format that has become universally accepted, that it has to stick with it! Innovation means thinking about the future and inventing the next system.

 

What does the market want?: General public looks at price and price and sometimes at price... The Professional probably (I have no idea really as I dont know any professionals) looks at what delivers the results and feels comfortable. The rich amateur wants a "name" and Leica is still it so they will buy whatever is produced.

[stunsworth]

Full frame would either require new lenses to keep the anlge of incidence at the sensor small, or optics/electronics on the sensor to offset this - this is probably more costly and difficult to produce.

 

Not necessarily so. I use Leica R lenses on my full frame Canon 5D without any vignetting issues - although the widest lens I use is 20mm.

[pascal_meheut]

Steve is right. I remember that someone (guy mancuso ?) tried the 15mm on a modified FF Canon and vignetting was not a big problem.

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[paulja]

soon as they build the R10 i will buy one....paul