hoppyman Posted February 14, 2009 Share #21 Posted February 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Adan, working your comments forwards: I think the new 18 will take about a 58mm screw in filter Only my guess of course. We shall hear officially soon enough. Let's compare guesses again then. I understand your point on the image circle. However I respectfully disagree that Leica would consider making any new M lens that was not fully compatible with any current or future M camera. I have never seen any hint that Leica are considering this, nor do I think that it would be in any way in their best interest. My personal opinion, naturally. On that dealer ad, I agree the information is incomplete. I just don't read any significance into that. I know nothing about that dealer. As you say, we shall see. In any event by every published comment I have seen from Leica executives, any possible 24x36 sensor M camera is a long way down the track, if technically feasible at all. With the S2 system still embryonic and the R10 stated to be their next priority I don't see any capacity for such a major new product line for years, if possible at all. Accepting that time-line, the whole issue is academic currently. Maybe this discussion will come up in 2012 for Photokina I respectfully disagree with Charles99's contention. I think that Leica are doing their best to give us exactly what lenses we want and need now for M8's and film M's. Look at all the new designs over the last period. On M8 numbers, one interview with Dr Kaufmann quoted a production rate of one thousand per month. Geoff: Working your comments backwards... If the 18 will take a standard E49 filter that will be great. I was going by the specs of the 21 and 24 'luxes, which this 18 resembles more in terms of its "stepped" lens hood rather than the 24 f/3.8's straight hood. Your 18 (and this 18) may work well on 24 x 36 film and 18 x 27 silicon - but that is no indication that either lens will work well on 24 x 36 silicon. The store selling it lists the angles of view on the M8, but does not mention the angles of coverage for 24 x 36. That just struck me as strange. Do they think film users (24x36) in general are too small a market in these times to bother adding 2 lines of web coding? When Leica makes the official announcement next week, these little mysteries will be cleared up. Charles99: There is an interesting assumption in your post: "They really need to stop worrying about covering all bases (ie film users and a future FF M9/10) and give users what they need now." Out of curiosity, what proportion of Leica M users do you think use M8s, and what proportion use film? Over 1,000,000 film Ms sold over the years, and maybe 25,000 M8s so far? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Hi hoppyman, Take a look here Leica m 3.8/18 super-elmar. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted February 14, 2009 Share #22 Posted February 14, 2009 Did anyone else notice this? "nombre de lentilles 8 en 7 groupes" 8 elements in 7 groups. I dunno about M-superwides but if this were an SLR lens this would be a remarkable achievement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted February 14, 2009 Share #23 Posted February 14, 2009 Oh dear. I was considering getting something wider than my 24/2.8 Elmarit ASPH (which is superb). I was wondering about CV 15, or possibly a Zeiss or a Leica 21. This makes it even harder to decide... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 14, 2009 Share #24 Posted February 14, 2009 I am a little surprised by the enthusiasm for this new lens. It is a field which already has two excellent lenses, the 18/4 Zeiss Distagon and Leica's own WATE. I am not sure what this adds to the party. IMHO the research time of the M lens team could have been better spent elsewhere. Just for a few examples: An updated 35/1.4 with less lens to lens variability and less aperture shift: A 28/f1.4 Summilux: An ultra wide prime between 12 and 15mm: An updated MATE. I think any of those could sell better than a "me too" 18mm. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 14, 2009 Share #25 Posted February 14, 2009 It is a field which already has two excellent lenses, the 18/4 Zeiss Distagon and Leica's own WATE I'm sure Leica would like to offer their own 18mm lens, rather than suggest people but a Zeiss <grin>, and at current exchange rates it will be about £1000 cheaper than the wate + viewfinder - and quite a few people will already have a 24mm viewfinder so won't need to buy the new Leica offering. I'd be very suprised if one of the next M lenses wasn't a 28mm Summilux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 14, 2009 Share #26 Posted February 14, 2009 John: Good question. The adding of a prime lens below 21mm seems to imply the M8 format will be around for a while. OTOH the moderate max. aperture may mean it can be "telecentric" in a smallish package. That's what I thought at first. But looking at the picture linked to in the first post in this thread, the rear element seems to be about 8mm behind the lens flange, i.e. about 20mm from the sensor. So it's a retrofocus design all right, but by the time you get towards 22mm off axis (43.3mm image circle) the angles of incidence of the rays seem much larger than on a telecentric design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 14, 2009 Share #27 Posted February 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) 8 elements in 7 groups. I dunno about M-superwides but if this were an SLR lens this would be a remarkable achievement. And two aspheric surfaces. And they need that one cemented doublet for the Absorban UV block. Very observant, Doug. I noticed the number but didn't think anything about it. You're right, it's a highly stressed design. Remember, dSLR lenses today are AF and tend to be IS, so they need a lot of stuff to shove around. And SLR wideangles need to be retrofocal to a much greater degree than the M system requires. (Can you say that in English? "retrofocal, more retrofocal, most retrofocal"? ) The Zeiss 18/4 has 10 spherical elements in 8 groups. In one of his articles, Erwin Puts remarked that Leica designs tend to be more highly stressed than their Zeiss counterparts. The more elements you have to accomplish something, the more tolerance each can have without upsetting the overall performance. With Leica designs, the goal is to have a minimum of elements with each carrying its own weight. When I worked for them, Leica expressed that concept as "the assembly process itself is part of quality control." Glad you mentioned it. Just one of the things Leica does so well that they're almost invisible unless pointed out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 14, 2009 Share #28 Posted February 14, 2009 Because it goes against the philosophy at Leica, where it's still possible to use a 70+ year old lens on their latest digital M camera. Also having spent several hundreds, or thousands, of pounds/dollars/Euros how would it feel to realise that your lenses would no longer work with a full frame M? I was kind of playing the devils advocate here, and of course Leica is going to do what Leica's always done. But just think if on the release of the M8 they had released a crop wide, say an 18mm f/2.8 for around $2K. A lot of users would have been all over that, myself included. There's already a 24 f/2.8 for film users (which the 18 becomes on the M8) so in essence all bases would be covered. A DX style lens is easier to design faster, uses less glass and therefore can be offered at a slightly less price (and I could be totally wrong here). But of course the window for offering a crop style lens has long passed, as many users are looking forward to a FF style M8. As far as the film user base out there, how many of them are buying new cameras vs people buying new M8 or M8.2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 14, 2009 Share #29 Posted February 14, 2009 As far as the film user base out there, how many of them are buying new cameras vs people buying new M8 or M8.2? I've no idea, but an alternative question would be how many people are using film bodies compared to the M8? M8 sales may indeed be greater than that of film cameras, but there are a lot more film bodies out there than M8 ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 14, 2009 Share #30 Posted February 14, 2009 I'm sure Leica would like to offer their own 18mm lens, rather than suggest people but a Zeiss <grin>, and at current exchange rates it will be about £1000 cheaper than the wate + viewfinder - and quite a few people will already have a 24mm viewfinder so won't need to buy the new Leica offering. I'd be very suprised if one of the next M lenses wasn't a 28mm Summilux. Steve, The point I was trying to make (probably badly) was that an 18/4 is going to have to complete for sales against two other excellent lenses, the Zeiss and the WATE. If I was looking for another niche to make, sell and profit from a new lens, I would target areas where there is less competition and/or it would be a volume seller. In the ultra wides for example, there is only the very large and non coupled Zeiss 15/2.8 or the CV's, which although wonderful value for money, are not quite up to Leica standard and can be of variable quality. They are of course, also non-coupled, although this is of little consequence on the 12mm. The 35 ASPH Lux, which could be regarded as one of Leica's two "standard" lenses for the M8 (the other being the 35 Summicron) really does need an update and the re-introduction of chrome lenses, probably with a moving element along the lines of the 50 Lux. I think I tried 6 or 7 different 35 Summiluxes before I found one I was happy with, which had zero static back focus and acceptable aperture shift. I am not arguing that the 18/3.8 would be a nice lens to have, it is just that I would have put it further down the "wouldn't it be nice if" list, maybe even behind a 35 Noctilux - dream, dream! Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 14, 2009 Share #31 Posted February 14, 2009 @ stunsworth, Philippe D. and adan, Thanks for the viewpoint. Never thought of that though I know how different my 19mm R-lens is from my 21mm M-lens. Different creature. The 18mm examples look more creative and fun to do, yes. Though I still love 21mm, the 18mm is actually an interesting lens, and the price along with the compact design is going to be great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted February 14, 2009 Share #32 Posted February 14, 2009 And two aspheric surfaces. And they need that one cemented doublet for the Absorban UV block. Leica do not stop UV by Absorban only, but also, and sometimes exclusively, by the special coatings. The current Macro-Elmar-M does not have any cement in it: It is four elements in 'four groups'. Whatever the differences between the Zeiss and the Elmar 18mm offerings, this is of course the lens that Leica should have offered when the M8 debuted, not the WATE. The fact that Leica did not do that is the reason why I now use the Zeiss. Besides, 18mm is an interesting and useful focal length on a FF camera too. The old man from the Age of the CV 15mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted February 14, 2009 Share #33 Posted February 14, 2009 I guess we will know much more next Friday and hopefully see some pictures coming out of this lens. Just the comparison between the Distagon ZM and this Super-Elmar is astonishing. The Distagon have 10 elements in 8 groups, Super-Elmar 8 elements (2 Aspherical) in 7 groups. I'm just wondering, the result with an M8 stay by 3916x2634 pixels and the Distagon is already pretty good at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted February 14, 2009 Share #34 Posted February 14, 2009 I think that Leica are doing their best to give us exactly what lenses we want and need now for M8's and film M's. Look at all the new designs over the last period. I wonder how long they can keep up announcing new things without actually delivering anything... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 14, 2009 Share #35 Posted February 14, 2009 Leica are delivering the M8.2 and the Elmar 24. AFAIK the new Summiluxes are becoming available. This moderate aperture 18, priced well below the WATE and much more compact, was widely requested. I think that it is great news. What have you ordered that you have not been able to get your hands on yet? Seems to me that Leica are working hard at expanding their product range on several fronts. There are significant discounts and rebates on a lot of items if you would like to obtain something from an extensive lens range right now. I wonder how long they can keep up announcing new things without actually delivering anything... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystic Posted February 15, 2009 Share #36 Posted February 15, 2009 I saw a couple of pictures from the Zeiss lens which were superb, hopefully the new Leica 18mm is even better (if that is possible ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 15, 2009 Share #37 Posted February 15, 2009 I have the ZM lens as there was none available from Leica except the much more expensive WATE. It is a very good lens. The photos from the ZM don't belong in this forum though. However note that the coming Super Elmar uses less elements and two of them are aspherical. That indicates that this is a cutting edge new Leica design. It should produce magnificent results. Definitely on my shopping list! I saw a couple of pictures from the Zeiss lens which were superb, hopefully the new Leica 18mm is even better (if that is possible ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted February 17, 2009 Share #38 Posted February 17, 2009 From the Red Dot Camera website: http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/ Super Elmar 18mm f3.8 ASPH - £1955 18mm Metal Finder - £550 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 17, 2009 Share #39 Posted February 17, 2009 From the Red Dot Camera website: Super Elmar 18mm f3.8 ASPH - £1955 18mm Metal Finder - £550 That makes the Frankenfinder look like a bargain. I think I paid £400 for mine about 13 months ago. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 18, 2009 Share #40 Posted February 18, 2009 Leica's actual press release now up on the DPReview site. Includes the new flash too. note that AOV figures ARE quoted for 24x36 the same as all previous lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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