paulmoore Posted January 28, 2009 Share #141 Posted January 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Very unfortunately, Leica S lenses are NOT HR/Digitar lenses, and 30x45 will never come close to real medium format, not to mention about the Rodenstock/Schneider stuff, which is "large format". I'll not put up another post in this thread, all I've said is quite clear. Ciao. I agree that the S2 Leica lenses are not HR/digitars and should not be compared. With my practical use of both digital and traditional in small,medium and large format, I would say that the yet to be released and tested s2 should squarly fall in what I would call medium format.. there is no point in comparing the large format ( non slr cameras which use large sensors and require ground glass or guess-tamating focusing ) lenses with those of medium format slr cameras. The S2 30x45 Leica format should deliver images exceeding any 120 film image and also the previous generation medium format 22 mp cameras/sensors.. and compete in the range of the current 31-37mp slr cameras. It is my ho that any sensor 39 and above provides large format quality as seen in the latest sensors released. Now add to the equation the quality of the Leitz S2 glass and I think this is the making of a great hand held camera..providing images which meet the demands of commercial print photographers. Will the 60mp alpa setup give you a bigger print of the interior of st pauls? sure but the s2 is not the made for the most demanding architectual or landscape shooter.. I would not want to try to shoot moving models with the alpa, or linhof 679 or my rollei xact2..where the wonderful hr/digtars live..But I shoot landcape sometimes, and some job might require a wideangle shot in an interior and the s2 would be great. I am frustrated that there seems to be the need for all these mismatched comparisons..Jordon vs Pele stuff of the schoolyard. I realise that not having the camera in hand we are left with just our imaginations but keep it real.. Compare apples to apples. schneider vs rodenstock lenses..r lenses vs canon..keep it practical. I also believe that FF 35mm digital, done right, will provide images in the realm of medium format.. I am optimistic about the future r10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Hi paulmoore, Take a look here price of the new S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
georg Posted January 28, 2009 Share #142 Posted January 28, 2009 I only came up with the comparison to Rodenstock HR/Digitars to give an idea what IQ a 30-40MP-sensor with superior glass is capable of in comparison to "normal/good" glass used for high-end-DSLRs/Hasselblad. The pictures made with the S2-prototype reminded my of pictures made with an Alpa+P45+Digitars - simply not like high-end-35mm-DSLRs at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted January 29, 2009 Share #143 Posted January 29, 2009 When the DMR was announced, I remember very well how a lot of people like sdai where able to predict how it would compare to the competition even before having ever touched one. Also that 10Mpix was not enough, that competitors had excellent lenses too and so on. I also remember the first sample pictures. Just like the S2, they were not really convincing. The DMR came, sold out quickly and image quality was at least as good as Canon and Nikon flagship at the moment, making it 1 of the 3 best DSLR which not that bad. I'm not saying that the S2 will know the same fate, just that we have no idea how good it will be, if it will find its market or not. Of course, the idea of saying "I don't know yet, let's wait" is apparently out of reach for a lot of people. But I'm afraid this might be the case here. P.S: funnily, the pre-availability buzz about the M8 was much more positive. It was expected to be quite good because of DMR experience. It is indeed but nobody was able to anticipate the number of problems we encountered. So much for the "predicting the future" capability of the internet forum experts who always seem so confident. I guess they are stock market analyst in the real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 29, 2009 Share #144 Posted January 29, 2009 No, Pascal, they worked for Standard and Poors or Moody's, rating home-mortgage-backed bonds as "high-quality investment grade".... =8^o Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted January 31, 2009 Share #145 Posted January 31, 2009 Of course, the idea of saying "I don't know yet, let's wait" is apparently out of reach for a lot of people. But I'm afraid this might be the case here. pascal, you are completely right. just let us wait for the safari edition S2.---))) peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 31, 2009 Share #146 Posted January 31, 2009 pascal, you are completely right. just let us wait for the safari edition S2.---)))peter Which will be just before Leica releases the S3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
etrigan63 Posted February 3, 2009 Share #147 Posted February 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Which will be just before Leica releases the S3 Don't forget the Reticulated Ostrich Testicle leather wrap for that one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm Posted February 9, 2009 Share #148 Posted February 9, 2009 I'm waiting for the S2.2 myself. It'll probably be EUR €20,000 but the shutter will sound nicer. Now, now Michael. But you're probably right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted February 10, 2009 Share #149 Posted February 10, 2009 pascal, you are completely right. just let us wait for the safari edition S2.---)))peter I am sure this is a rumor - Leica is sending a S2 to fellow german Karl Largerfeld to develop a "catwalk edition" - besides the shrink to fit black leather it will have onboard mp3 player with all of Karl's favs..and a red dot 18K stick pin for your own nehru tux. ..they have presold 5000 of these to the distributor in dubai. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted February 15, 2009 Share #150 Posted February 15, 2009 If Leica were smart, and from a marketing perspective they've always been pretty cagey, they would price the S2 at a point where amateurs would buy it, although feeling the pain. Would professional demand be enough to make Leica $$$? I suppose part of the cost of the S2 would also run over to the R10, because they're going to use a lot of the same R&D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 16, 2009 Share #151 Posted February 16, 2009 If Leica were smart....... they would price the S2 at a point where amateurs would buy it, although feeling the pain. Would professional demand be enough to make Leica $$$?. I still have a fantasy that I'm going to win the Lottery so I follow these threads on the S2 with casual interest. Would I enjoy a larger sensor with custom new generation optics [particularly the shift lens]? Of course I would, but as to who will buy this camera other than those with a private income from accumulated family wealth - I have no idea. This is a world-wide forum and circumstances are different in every country, but where I am photography is in crisis; it barely registers as a trade yet alone a profession and out of all the photographers I know there isn't one who is safely 'doing well' regardless of their sometimes considerable talent and experience. Over three decades I have never seen a working 'R' camera, and have never met a photographer who chose an 'R' over Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad etc., and the only working M8 I've seen in two years is mine. These Leica forums can get rather chummy about Leica, but in truth I cannot think of a single photographer [outside my lottery fantasy] who would give a damn about the S2, or who would be likely to even consider it as a working option. The botched launch of the M8, and the cheap trading on Leica's former reputation for good engineering and quality control, and the accompanying often reported sloppiness in their lamentably slow repair department has not gone unnoticed amongst professionals - so why would they trust a new Leica flagship SLR sold at a likely inflated price where the costs prohibit purchasing a back-up camera body. In the largish city where I live, maybe some wealthy amateur will buy an S2 but I'm damned sure no professionals will - though no doubt some might find it admirable. So in answer to Steve's proposition that Leica should cost the S2 for amateur consumption, I'd say they will by default because too many professionals cannot afford the desired tools of their trade in the way that so many hobbyists on forums can. The possibility remains that the S2 could turn out to be another Leica folly and a distraction of company energy away from e.g.; developments to the 'M' line and it's antiquated [50 + years] form. I want Leica to succeed as a modern camera company. I think the 'M' line has great potential as an expanded digital line and personally would have preferred attention being paid there rather than diverting energy to SLR photography. But this is an S2 forum so I guess I might be in a minority of one. ................ Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 17, 2009 Share #152 Posted February 17, 2009 My thoughts exactly. Not sure why they didn't put their energies towards expanding the M line and developing a unique compact(s) as well at the same time keeping the prices of the M line down. I will bet you anything within six months of the S2 release we'll be seeing huge rebates. I doubt even that will be enough to make it float. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 17, 2009 Share #153 Posted February 17, 2009 Not sure why they didn't put their energies towards expanding the M line and developing a unique compact(s) as well at the same time keeping the prices of the M line down. It might be helpful to read the interview with Dr. Kaufmann and other Leica officers in the current LFI. In a nutshell, Leica is saying that the S2 was not just designed to compete in the medium-format market, its components were designed to be used to varying degrees in the R, M and other product lines as well. In other words S2 R&D is M and R camera R&D as well, so that the various components don't have to be re-invented for each product line. This is one of the benefits of vertical integration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 17, 2009 Share #154 Posted February 17, 2009 The two new Summiluxes are a direct result of the S2 R&D S2 R&D will be paid for, partly, out of S2/R10/M9/'lux sales etc etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted February 17, 2009 Share #155 Posted February 17, 2009 The two new Summiluxes are a direct result of the S2 R&D how so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joekurtz Posted February 18, 2009 Share #156 Posted February 18, 2009 If Leica were smart, and from a marketing perspective they've always been pretty cagey, they would price the S2 at a point where amateurs would buy it, although feeling the pain. Would professional demand be enough to make Leica $$$? I think they will make money on it, the market is there and they fully know the audience/market they are going after. see this link DSLRs vs. Medium-Format Digital Cameras: Is there Room in the Studio for Both? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2009 Share #157 Posted February 19, 2009 Ummm. That site manages to list the M8 as an SLR..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 19, 2009 Share #158 Posted February 19, 2009 Ummm. That site manages to list the M8 as an SLR..... Yes... but at least as a PROFESSIONAL one ...so as the V-Lux which also has a very attractive price !!! ($ 0) Anyway... rather an interesting article... seems that a number of pros really feel a sort of permanent uncertainess between DSLRs and DMF : can be that really Leica has squared the circle ? "Buy one get two" ? Hope for them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndjambrose Posted February 21, 2009 Share #159 Posted February 21, 2009 IF Leica get the pricing right then I am sure many wedding photographers (who aren't sponsored by Nikon or Canon) will be looking at the S2. Not so sure. What makes a wedding photographer different from a fashion photographer is the number of images required in the finished product. A finished fashion spread is 10-20 images. A finished wedding product is typically 400-800 images, sometimes more. While the S2 might have excellent resolution, the downside is the extraordinary time it would take to post-process that quantity of 37Mp files. I don't know many wedding photographers who would have appetite for that. That's one of the reasons the H3DII has no penetration at all in the wedding market. Even the 5D MkII is causing some people to outsource their post work due to time. Portability is also a driving factor. A fashion shoot may take around 8-10 hours, but most of that is setting up time. The time spent with camera in hand is probably less than 60 minutes over the day. A wedding photographer needs to be able to carry their camera, a back-up body and several lenses for up to 14 hours. Nobody wants more weight than necessary. And low light performance may be the biggest factor. Most wedding photographers look for excellent ISO performance in the 3200-12800 range, and not to mention a good range of ultra-fast lenses. Not sure the S2 would ever come close. Bottom line, if you need a light camera, never want to print larger than 24 inches and spend maybe half the day shooting in low light, then an S2 would be a strange choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 21, 2009 Share #160 Posted February 21, 2009 how so? Because they are all coming out of Project AFRika Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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