price of the new S2

[tom0511]

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Maybe Leica intended to have a discussion in the forum in order to find out more opinions?

 

IMO the S2+lens shouldnt cost more than a H3dII-31 kit with 80mm lens.

 

Leica also needs to keep in mind that people who want a S2-system have to buy everything new.

So lets say someone has a budget of 20k Euro, and lets say he needs 3 lenses and a MF-camera+back.

If you have to buy alll new you spend maybe 2500€ (and more) x3 for three Leica lenses and you have left 12500 for the S2.

If you buy Mamiya, or Hassy, or Rollei, you buy the lenses used for 40% of the new list price, and you have left quite more money for the Body and back.

 

I am really curious how Leica wants to manage to cover R&D cost for a new system, for new lenses, cost for building up and maintaining a service system, all this with low volumes (at least in the beginning).

I really doubt they can win this game if the price the camera too low. IMO they just need to offer a better camera than others and better lenses. Have a technical advantage and let people pay for it. Sell it to rich amateurs/ hobby snobby shooters.

I just wish and hope Leica will be successfull.

Cheers, Tom

[paulmoore]

15K Euros is way out of any wedding photography market on the planet. Mamiya isn't even selling into that market and they're under 10K dollars for a kit.

When was the last time you booked a top wedding photographer? Sure to most of us 15k euros is a big nut, too big. But..

I think you are missing their goals.. take the wedding market, like all the areas of speciality in the field of professional photography the rates of the photographers can be graphed.. and doing so I think that you will find the upper 20% of this field would be able to afford whatever system they want to go for.

I wish such a beautiful piece of equipment could be for all of us.. but Leica is not concerned with the mass wedding shooters.. or any run of the mill snappers.. they are targeting the most successful guys and gals out there. and 10% of all wedding photographers is still a very big market..If I am not mistaken, wedding shooters are the only category of commercial photographers which has seen a nice increase in rates over the last 10 years. I know my shooting rates have not gone up.

I think there has developed some weird notion that Leica is a working class camera..it has always been for the elite, those willing to pay extra for what they offer. I am really pleased that they are trying to push the bar higher, it gives us that appreciate something to shoot for.. literally.

[miami91]

When was the last time you booked a top wedding photographer? Sure to most of us 15k euros is a big nut, too big. But..

I think you are missing their goals.. take the wedding market, like all the areas of speciality in the field of professional photography the rates of the photographers can be graphed.. and doing so I think that you will find the upper 20% of this field would be able to afford whatever system they want to go for.

I wish such a beautiful piece of equipment could be for all of us.. but Leica is not concerned with the mass wedding shooters.. or any run of the mill snappers.. they are targeting the most successful guys and gals out there. and 10% of all wedding photographers is still a very big market..If I am not mistaken, wedding shooters are the only category of commercial photographers which has seen a nice increase in rates over the last 10 years. I know my shooting rates have not gone up.

I think there has developed some weird notion that Leica is a working class camera..it has always been for the elite, those willing to pay extra for what they offer. I am really pleased that they are trying to push the bar higher, it gives us that appreciate something to shoot for.. literally.

 

I can speak to this as a consumer. When I got married nearly 10 years ago, I went with one of the elite wedding photographers in Minneapolis (Hilary Bullock). Partly I'll admit, this was due to her reputation and the cache of a big name. But I also really liked her style ("wedding photojournalism" --- lots of b/w, almost entirely candid and spontaneous, little posing, etc.). As I recall, her rate was several thousand dollars --- more than we spent on flowers, the band, etc. Only our catering bill was a larger expense. God knows what her rates are now 10 years later.

 

Jeff.;

[charlesphoto99]

Whilst talking to my local leica dealer; He gave me a small book on the new S2, and then started to tell me the price if I wanted to place a order.

I was shocked to find out that the S2 will be about 15000€ sold with a lens? which of coures makes this camera at arms reach!!!

 

Not my arm's! (they're feeling pretty short these days, esp in relation to Leica).

[dfarkas]

There is another element that I don't hear that many people discuss: equipment leasing. In our pro lab business we buy $250K printing machines. Do we pay cash? No. We lease. The same can be done for cameras and other photo equipment.

 

At current equipment lease rates you would have a payment of $300 for every $10K for a 36 month lease with a $1 buyout (you own it after you are done paying). So, if you wanted to buy a $30K camera system, you could lease it for $900 per month. If you are a professional and can book at least $900 a month in paying jobs, you can cover your lease. The lease is also a 100% deduction for taxation purposes (at least in the US) because it is a line item business expense. So, you are not just limited to a standard depreciation deduction.

 

So, while there is no official pricing on the S2 yet, take your best guess and see if a lease would work for a wedding pro, fashion shooter, commercial/architecture/food photographer, or just an amateur who wants the best.

 

Something to think about, expecially considering there are leasing companies that specialize in photographic equipment.

 

David

[Overgaard]

Good point David,

 

Most photographers here around, and I guess in Europe and perhaps worldwide, lease their equipment. I think the number of photographers buying Hasselblad or other MF systems cash is very few.

 

Still, of course, the price has to be in the same or a competitive range.

 

But it serves to isolate the MF and the future Leica S2 price range from say a M8.2 that you might save up for as a christmas present for yourself. Thought my impression is that most Canon and Nikon shooters here around lease their cameras as well (which, when you "have to" have two of them, easily compares to a MF acquisition).

[carstenw]

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If it is true that Canon has just bought the Contax assembly line and the rights to zeiss lenses it may mean a further reduction in price overall on MF equipment.

 

Did you post this somewhere else too? IIRC, the Contax brand and the 645 camera design with lenses is owned by Zeiss, but the production was done by Kyocera, so buy the "Contax assembly line", they would have had to buy both bits. The 35mm f3.5, to take one example, is the MF version of the 21mm f2.8 Distagon, which they would never sell. I think this rumour was made up.

[carstenw]

IMO the S2+lens shouldnt cost more than a H3dII-31 kit with 80mm lens.

 

I know what you mean, but this isn't quite fair. Both the S2 and the 70mm standard lens are higher spec than the Hasselblad equivalent. I would expect that a 25-50% premium would be more fair.

 

Leica also needs to keep in mind that people who want a S2-system have to buy everything new.

 

They do have to keep it in mind, but they cannot price new lenses at used prices.

[Jamie Roberts]

When was the last time you booked a top wedding photographer? Sure to most of us 15k euros is a big nut, too big. But..

I think you are missing their goals.. take the wedding market, like all the areas of speciality in the field of professional photography the rates of the photographers can be graphed.. and doing so I think that you will find the upper 20% of this field would be able to afford whatever system they want to go for {snipped}.

 

Hi Paul.

 

LOL!! Are you asking me what my client's average spend is? LOL!!

 

I've studied with, or talked with, or attended conferences with quite a few of the world's top wedding photographers. They almost universally shoot either Canon or Nikon (one--Joe Buissink--regularly jokes in his presentations about "imagining having to use a rangefinder to shoot!" and I sit there and nod and smile ) When they do shoot Leica, it tends to be film (Ms).

 

None of them I know shoots MF digital.

 

I know what these guys charge and I'm actively engaged in WPPI, etc...

 

So I'll say it again: no wedding shop I know is going to spend the equivalent of $20K USD for a single body and a lens.

 

The guys I know who charge well over 10K$ per wedding, with an average spend of between $20k and $50K+ per wedding, can certainly afford whatever they like.

 

One of them I've never met and don't know what he charges--Jeff Ascough--is a long-time Leica shooter who I now know has decided to shoot with two 5d2s.

 

One of them I have met--Charles Marring--was still packing a 20D along with his 1d2 series cameras. He liked the look of the Canon 85 1.2L on a 1.6 crop.

 

See, what you're missing here is that the wedding "application" simply doesn't call for much more than a D3x or 1ds3 or 5d2 or DMR (R10?) or M8 can deliver. No-one is making prints for magazine runs where the texture of a fabric has to pass an art directors inspection at 100% magnification. Client albums are only so physically big, which means client prints are only so big. Right now, a D3 or 5d or 1ds3 or DMR has enough on the resolution side to bring in that kind of revenue, so what's the incentive to upgrade?

 

A D3x or 1ds3 also has some pretty good low-light response, which is crucial for weddings.

 

So this becomes a business decision. Do you buy one S2--less portable, less low-light friendly, less serviceable in a pinch--or do you keep shooting a complete Nikon and Canon system including a backup?

 

If you do the math, I can buy twin D3s or four 5d2s and all the lenses I need for years for the initial price of an S2 plus lens. That's with no discount

 

All this means is that the top pros keep more money in their pocket regardless of what they charge... because the other secret here of course is that any of those photographers could outshoot most of us with a 10d because they know how to make pictures that people pay a lot of money for.

 

Further, many of those top photographers are sponsored by Nikon or Canon So if Leica wanted to go that route, that would be the way they'd get those names, perhaps.

 

But for most of us (and I'm not cheap at all) the economics of what is actually a $30 or $40K investment doesn't make sense, even with a ridiculously high revenue stream. The ROI is simply not there.

 

Now--if they get it to 10K $ with a lens then I could see a migration. They would kill Mamiya and eat away at Hassy (and Phase ). But double is just too much.

 

Maybe it's the R10 and M9--based on S2 technology--that will finally crack the wedding market. I see more M8.2 wedding shooters every day, it seems.

[mgcd]

Hi Jaime,

 

I totally agree with your rationale. I may be wrong here but I don't believe that Leica ever actually targeted wedding shooters. My recollection is that they're aiming for the advertising, fashion and high end editorial markets instead.

 

Cheers,

[paulmoore]

hey guys, I have no idea what makes a good wedding shoot, last time I shot one, it was the bro-in laws wedding and I was asked to shoot even though they had hired a local guy to do it.. I did not what to step on this guys toes so I discreetly shot the thing with a 5mp canon elph.. did all in a4 b&w..the pro shot it as you said.. canon digital.. but he used 120 film for all the group stuff..I would not use anything but a small camera to shoot those dreaded events..

my point on the whole thing is that only the top photographers of any speciality can afford to buy this stuff.. how do the wedding video guys afford all that nice gear.. they charge for it.. you went off on me like I was trying to tell you about your field.. I don't know wtf about weddings.. but I know about the business of photography and that is my point.. don't blame me if you can't pop for the highend stuff..and if you can't use it because everyone shoots 35mm digital then don't..be thankful that even in this economy dick and jane are still getting married..and dick and joe .. and even jane and mary.. so your market is growing... be happy about your slice of the photopie.

[sdai]

Last time I shot a wedding for one of my colleagues it was back in 2005, he hired a pro actually but simply wanted to have a "backup" and do some intimate stuff. I declined his offer to be paid for a fraction of what the pro charged him ... he bought a 5D and said to me "buddy, this is your camera ... keep it after the wedding".

 

I wish this could happen again and someone will buy me a S2 but hey, even Obama is loving a 5D2 and who said Pete Souza shot with a M8 at the White House? I know there are several corporate CEOs and private fund managers hanging on this forum, perhaps they're the better target market of the S2.

 

Another first: Presidential portrait shot with digicam | Crave - CNET

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi Jaime,

 

I totally agree with your rationale. I may be wrong here but I don't believe that Leica ever actually targeted wedding shooters. My recollection is that they're aiming for the advertising, fashion and high end editorial markets instead.

 

Cheers,

 

Hey Conrad, yeah--I'm a little frustrated waiting for the R10 is all

 

Someone mentioned weddings a few posts back, and I just thought I'd give some people some insight into that particular business.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}I wish this could happen again and someone will buy me a S2 but hey, even Obama is loving a 5D2 and who said Pete Souza shot with a M8 at the White House? I know there are several corporate CEOs and private fund managers hanging on this forum, perhaps they're the better target market of the S2.

 

Another first: Presidential portrait shot with digicam | Crave - CNET

 

Word to the wise on that link--the actual file is in aRGB not sRGB--so if you look at it in a browser without colour management, it looks awful.

 

I also just read somewhere that someone lent Pete Souza the 5d2 (he indeed evidently shoots with an M8) but I don't have the source for that...

[sdai]

Word to the wise on that link--the actual file is in aRGB not sRGB--so if you look at it in a browser without colour management, it looks awful.

 

I'm using Firefox 3.1 which has color management turned on so it looks fine on my computer.

 

In general (as I've spoken before), I think it would be a good sign (if the 15k Euro kit price is true) and it would show that Leica is intended to stay close to competition (when there is competition) in terms of pricing.

[carstenw]

I had heard that Pete Souza will use both 5D2s and M8s...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

From Leica , Peter is using a M8.2 and they are trying to get him the 21 1.4 for the inauguration. Leica is very excited that they have a Leica back in the White House again. I talked to Christian last week about this. President Obama official portrait though is from a 5DII.

[Riccis]

The S2 is not the right camera for my wedding photography style and this is the reason I will never use one even if given for free... Even the R is not for me (and if you read the hints dropped in the latest LFI it will not be a cheap camera either).

 

Give me an M (full frame) and 3 lenses (35, 50, 90) and that is more than enough to cover anything from a small, intimate event to an over the top ritzy affair... Wait, that is exactly my wedding kit!

 

Cheers,

[Jamie Roberts]

The S2 is not the right camera for my wedding photography style and this is the reason I will never use one even if given for free... {snipped}

 

Riccis, if they gave me one for free I'd happily use it at every wedding. I still shoot longer than the M can handle, and every now and then there's a precise frame I want to capture or a large group I'd like more detail on.

 

Kidding aside, of course, I pretty much agree with you Though I still like a dSLR as well.

 

Having said that, an M9 ff or R10 would do that nicely. As for cheap, I haven't read the latest LFI yet but I don't expect the R10 to be cheap....nothing from Leica is cheap. $10K to break into the system is what the DMR/R9 cost me, and it was worth every penny An R10 with a good AF50 and AF135 is all I'd need to start (and I'm assuming my manual R lenses would still work, too

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Hallo,

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[sdai]

Having said that, an M9 ff or R10 would do that nicely. As for cheap, I haven't read the latest LFI yet but I don't expect the R10 to be cheap....nothing from Leica is cheap. $10K to break into the system is what the DMR/R9 cost me, and it was worth every penny An R10 with a good AF50 and AF135 is all I'd need to start (and I'm assuming my manual R lenses would still work, too

 

If you haven't read the latest LFI ... Jamie, here's what Dr. Kaufmann says: 1.33x is absolutely the right choice, anyone who is desperately waiting for a full frame M is a victim falling for a marketing trick, you only get a larger file when shooting full frame (I guess this applies to the S2 too, did Dr. Kaufmann really say so or is it made up by LFI? ) ... but it might come eventually if market decides it's needed.

 

We may have to wait another 2 years for the R10.