R compatibiity - Leica Fotographie says no.

[rick_dykstra]

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On page 28 of LFI issue 7/2008 it states, "The S2 will be incompatible with R lenses, which doesn't mean that the R system is over."

 

What do LFI know that we don't?

 

I recall reading that Dr Kaufmann stated at Photokina that R lenses would be compatible with the S2, via an adapter.

 

What's the sum of knowledge on this? What form would an adapter take? How much of the sensor would R lenses use?

[mgcd]

This is correct, the S2 will not be compatible with R lenses. This has already been covered here in other threads and discussed extensively. It makes sense as it is a totally new system. What is more problematic for my needs is that there have been no new developments on the R side, and whatever developments will take place, appear to be a little far off into the future (my speculation here). LFI also states that "Maybe R users are feeling a little angry and betrayed..." by the lack of a new R10 at this stage. Sounds about right...

 

Cheers,

[mjh]

There will be no adapter (wouldn’t make much sense anyway). On the other hand, there will be a backwards compatible R10 (using some of the technology in the S2) and new AF lenses.

[andybarton]

The R10 will take existing R lenses, and existing R cameras will take new R10 lenses (but manual focus only, of course)

 

 

[Probably]

[sdai]

there will be a backwards compatible R10 (using some of the technology in the S2) and new AF lenses.

 

This is my wild guess only but, if the R10 is not going to inherit everything from the S2, the biggest difference I'm expecting to see is about the sensor.

 

Many traditional R and M folks are likely going to give more preferences to high ISO performance and fast readout speed etc (as long as the base ISO performance is decent enough).

 

Clean ISO1600 shots and 5+ fps have become norm in current flocks of high end 35mm DSLRs, I suspect the Kodak's 6μm CCD can deliver that.

 

Single AF point won't cut either, not to mention the ability to lock down and track.

 

IMHO Leica picked up the easiest one to kick start ... they'll have more home work to do with the R10. The toughest one must be the 35mm FF M9, which will probably show up the last (or never).

 

Of course, they can go for a trimmed down S2, and I'm ok with that.

[leicar7]

From Stefan Daniels at the 2008 LHSA meeting:

 

Existing R lenses will be useable on the R10. I do not know what might be the particulars with respect to the particular version of rear mount - ROM, cams, etc. Lenses built for the R10 will NOT be mountable on film Rs, i.e., new R lenses, built for the R10 will not be backward compatible. I would not be surprised if some lenses may not be forward compatible, but nothing was said about any anticipated problems with specific lenses.

 

I failed to ask him if the aperture rings on existing lenses will function on the R10. R10 lenses will not likely have aperture rings, but the aperture will be controlled manually using a thumb dial on the upper right rear of the camera, similarly to the S2. This aspect is why I wonder about the aperture rings on old lenses working on the R10. R10 lenses will be AF. It is likely, but not 100% certain that the chip will be FF; let's hope so.

 

The S2 is a beautiful piece of kit, but is not intended to be so universally useful as the R camera. For instance, the S2 is not aimed at the sports photography market.

[rick_dykstra]

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I can manage with the S2 not accepting R lenses, though it would be better if it could - the range of R lenses is broader than the proposed S lenses.

 

It would take some serious massage and acupuncture to sooth my sorrows should the R10 not be full frame and not be fully compatible with my R lenses.

 

So why was Mr Kaufmann quoted as saying at Photokina that an adapter would allow R lenses to be fitted to the S2? Was this misreported?

[dfarkas]

During Photokina product managers Maike Harberts and Stephan Shulz repeatedly disputed this claim about an R to S adapter. There is a good chance that there will be an S to R adapter, though. This would allow an S-system user to get an R10 as a backup body and take all his existing lenses. This was discussed as a very strong possiblility but not a certainty.

 

I would expect that the current R lenses will use their aperture rings and communicate their f-stop setting to the camera via ROM. This will be similiar to how Zeiss ZF lenses function on the latest Nikons (except with ROM and not mechanical). The R10 will also have focus confirmation, which should help focusing accuracy.

 

David

[khun_k]

During Photokina product managers Maike Harberts and Stephan Shulz repeatedly disputed this claim about an R to S adapter. There is a good chance that there will be an S to R adapter, though. This would allow an S-system user to get an R10 as a backup body and take all his existing lenses. This was discussed as a very strong possiblility but not a certainty.

 

I would expect that the current R lenses will use their aperture rings and communicate their f-stop setting to the camera via ROM. This will be similiar to how Zeiss ZF lenses function on the latest Nikons (except with ROM and not mechanical). The R10 will also have focus confirmation, which should help focusing accuracy.

 

David

I think if the R10 is using the electronic mount, same physical size, but totally electronically controlled shutter and aperture, then the newer lens will not be workable on old R model, but old lens can be use on the new mount. Nikon's F mount for a good example, it works with the oldest lenses and some newer lens with pure mechanical structure, but some newer lens won't work on older cameras with the mechanical F mount. I think it is similar to Contax 645 and N system, the N system can of course take the 645 lens with an adapter, and not the other way around. If Contax hold on to itself, it would be a great system now, as it is with the new S2. On the other hand, the medium format does not need a system of 30 lenses, it will be just fine with really good 6-9 lenses.

[jaapv]

This is my wild guess only but, if the R10 is not going to inherit everything from the S2, the biggest difference I'm expecting to see is about the sensor.

 

Many traditional R and M folks are likely going to give more preferences to high ISO performance and fast readout speed etc (as long as the base ISO performance is decent enough).

 

Clean ISO1600 shots and 5+ fps have become norm in current flocks of high end 35mm DSLRs, I suspect the Kodak's 6μm CCD can deliver that.

 

Single AF point won't cut either, not to mention the ability to lock down and track.

 

IMHO Leica picked up the easiest one to kick start ... they'll have more home work to do with the R10. The toughest one must be the 35mm FF M9, which will probably show up the last (or never).

 

Of course, they can go for a trimmed down S2, and I'm ok with that.

 

 

I think that is just the point. The R10 is never going to make it if it is just a 5DII, Sony Alpha or even 1DsIII-Nikon D3 competitor. Not a chance. The only way it can find its niche is by being a baby S2.Then it is virtually without competition.

[sdai]

I think that is just the point. The R10 is never going to make it if it is just a 5DII, Sony Alpha or even 1DsIII-Nikon D3 competitor. Not a chance. The only way it can find its niche is by being a baby S2.Then it is virtually without competition.

 

I'll have no problem with that ... I only want to use my R lenses. I can buy other cameras to do stuff the R10 can't do.

 

But judging from the typical responses in other threads, we'll probably hear many folks crying for the lacking of this button, that button, lacking of information in the viewfinder ... and people won't agree upon the layout and maybe the size of buttons too. Hard to please everyone. LOL

[sdai]

On the other hand, the medium format does not need a system of 30 lenses, it will be just fine with really good 6-9 lenses.

 

Depending on your "needs", 4 or 5 lenses might be enough.

 

IMO the most useful lens among the pre-announced models is the 30-90/3.5, when mounted on the R10 it transforms into a 37.5-112.5 with the 1.25x cropping factor - a very favorable walk-around lens on both the S2 and R10.

[khun_k]

Depending on your "needs", 4 or 5 lenses might be enough.

 

IMO the most useful lens among the pre-announced models is the 30-90/3.5, when mounted on the R10 it transforms into a 37.5-112.5 with the 1.25x cropping factor - a very favorable walk-around lens on both the S2 and R10.

True, it really depends on, most user may find 2-3 will be enough but a range of 8-10 lenses, from the very wide to super-tele end will be good for most of user of different ways of shooting.

[dfarkas]

Depending on your "needs", 4 or 5 lenses might be enough.

 

IMO the most useful lens among the pre-announced models is the 30-90/3.5, when mounted on the R10 it transforms into a 37.5-112.5 with the 1.25x cropping factor - a very favorable walk-around lens on both the S2 and R10.

 

Actually, the 30-90mm lens would be equivalent to a 30-90mm on the R10 and a 24-70mm on the S2. You have to divide by 1.25 not multiply as it is a larger frame. The R10 needs no factor as we are talking about FF 35mm equiv.

 

Agreed, though, that the 30-90mm f/3.5 is very appealing. Only half a stop slower than f/2.8 and constant throughout the zoom range. Not a lot of medium format lenses like that around.

 

David

[sdai]

Actually, the 30-90mm lens would be equivalent to a 30-90mm on the R10 and a 24-70mm on the S2. You have to divide by 1.25 not multiply as it is a larger frame. The R10 needs no factor as we are talking about FF 35mm equiv. .

 

So the markings on a S lens are all in 35mm terms?

 

Sorry if I haven't made it clear but I was talking about adapting the Vario-Elmar-S 1:3.5/30-90mm ASPH. on a R10, if it's 30-90mm on a 30x45 frame then you'd multiply 1.25x ... likewise, if you use a 24-70 AF-S Nikkor designed for FF on a D300 it becomes a 36-105 because of the cropped view angle.

[dfarkas]

So the markings on a S lens are all in 35mm terms?

 

Sorry if I haven't made it clear but I was talking about adapting the Vario-Elmar-S 1:3.5/30-90mm ASPH on an R10, if it's 30-90mm on a 30x45 frame then you'd multiply 1.25x ... likewise, if you use a 24-70 AF-S Nikkor designed for FF on a D300 it becomes a 36-105 because of the cropped view angle.

 

Regardless of format, a focal length is just that. A 30mm lens is a 30mm lens. On medium format a 30mm is a very wide-angle, equivalent to a 24mm in 35mm terms. That same lens on 24x36mm (35mm FF) is a moderate wide. On a D300 with an APS-C sensor it is equivalent to a 45mm lens, a normal. On a 4/3 system camera a 30mm is equivalent to 60mm, which is a normal/short tele. So, the lens focal length is the same but the angle of view changes with format size. The larger the format, the more wide a lens becomes. The smaller the format, the longer the lens gets. Therefore, you divide by 1.25 to get the equiv. on the S2. No conversion is necessary when using an S lens on the R10.

 

 

David

[wildlightphoto]

... The smaller the format, the longer the lens gets.

 

Unless I'm mistaken what you mean here is that the smaller the format, the narrower the lens gets.

[leicar7]

The smaller the format for the same focal length lens, the narrower the angle of view and more telephoto-like in effect. Come on, guys, this is not so hard. No, the lenses for the S2 are not named in effective 35mm terms. The normal for the S2 is the 70/2.5.

 

Justin had an S2 with that lens and a mockup of a drive that we handled (fondled) at the LHSA meeting. It is most impressive. The largest anticipated focal length will be a 350.

 

The S2 being envisioned for a relatively restricted set of professional uses, there is probably little need to generate 30 lenses. Eight will go a long way. Landscapists who use tripods will like this, too. While people will use the S2 on the street, that will be a use that is not apparently among the top priorities behind the conception of the camera and system. It is not intended to be the universal type of machine that the 35mm SLR/DSLR has become. But people who seek the maximum best image quality in a mobile system will push the S2 onto the street, and demand may grow for a greater variety of lenses. This camera is so nice to use compared to any medium format I have ever handled that there is no comparison. This camera will be on the street. Quiet, and quick enough to satisfy a large range of uses.

 

The S2's mount is huge, and the lens flange to sensor surface distance is greater than that of an R body. So adapting R lenses to the S2 was not emphasized at the LHSA meeting. I failed to notice if the menus included selectable formats. I personally think that adapting R lenses to an S2 is kind of ridiculous. Yeah, people will have to try it, but it will not become the majority practice. Especially, since in the target community, many will lease, not buy the gear anyway - so why expect lots of people to use an R10 as a backup?

 

I hope the ROM contacts will allow the apertures on R lenses to work on the R10. Having to resort to stop down metering would be more than a pain, and would not support well the issue of compatibility.

[sdai]

I hope the ROM contacts will allow the apertures on R lenses to work on the R10. Having to resort to stop down metering would be more than a pain, and would not support well the issue of compatibility.

 

This should be easy as snapping your fingers.

 

Now for those who adapt R lenses on to Canon cameras, with the open aperture of your R lens coded into the chip on a AF confirmation adapter, you don't even need to bother with stop down metering, just turn the aperture ring to any setting you want and snap away, all metering modes are available.

 

There's one thing I'm wondering though, if you look at the S2's mount, there are 12 metal contacts while the R only has 9, I have no idea why so many contacts are needed but if the R10 adopts the same mechanism, we may need to swap the mount on the R lenses at that time.

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[topoxforddoc]

Well, Dr Kaufmann told me himself 2 days before Photokina that there would be a R lens to S2 adapter. However, he told me that it would not be available immediately.

 

Charlie