Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 28, 2008 Share #1 Posted September 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know we actually may see this as a niche but I see it actually more as mainstream in some MF ways. Let's not forget this is a 37 mpx sensor and the most popular MF sensor is 39 in MF. Being a MF shooter let me throw out the plus to it over the MF market and this is the whole market and makes me and others really consider this as a primary. Over MF Weather sealing . NO one has this in MF period. Big advantage here Smallest form factor. Huge advantage Leaf and Focal shutter. No one has both . Mamiya has some leaf lenses coming. Huge advantage here . Leica glass. Needs nothing said Type of Leica glass. T/S lens another Huge advantage. Macro, 24mm wide angle. 350mm Big sensor. Pretty much the normal now in size, in all honesty this won't matter much when you hit MF and big sensors they will be better than anything in 35mm . I have a 22mpx and will beat anything today in 35mm High ISO the best there is at 1600 and that's a push with noise. Assume better FPS no one has 1.5 seconds in this size chip Shutter lag sounds better will have to see. Battery life . Question mark but I am assuming better with this sensor 3 inch LCD . Just starting to hit the MF with quality viewing Vertical grip.I think I read that AF with slip differential manual. LOVE IT and big advantage than hitting a switch Leica quality of build . Some more I maybe missing but you get the point Some of the cons. Can't remove back. Not earth shattering but obviously a service issue and can't switch backs Price . If wrong it won't sell Period. Maybe better said MF shooters will not make a lateral move to it. Priced too high 35mm won't see as a system jump up Service and repair. It must be Pro level and from talk looks like Leica will do that and hopefully with shared alliance in Phase One which i see as a huge plus if they go this route in sales and service. Remains to be seen how this is handled but at least Leica acknowledges this area. Let's leave in the con area until further notice Over 35mm. Clear advantages in image quality no question. Cons slower than what folks in 35mm are used too. Many other Pro and Cons but most folks that jump up do NOT need 35mm speed in many cases. I need more espresso to go on. __________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here Leica S2 compared to MF. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted September 28, 2008 Share #2 Posted September 28, 2008 Nice analisys, Guy: I'm not personally involved in this appreciable tentative to enter a new market, but surely intend to follow the birth of this new line... should they fail, all Leica co., I imagine, would suffer a lot; I suppose that in the months to come they will have to invest a lot on buliding with care a set of "early adopters" - pro users to work closely with, BEFORE the general availability of S2, so that at that time they have adressed all the specific issues of the market, and (hope for them) can count on a number of "testimonials" "references" : they are absolutely needed to be widely accepted in a market in which, at the moment, they have no background but only their (respected) name to spend. I have seen in the forum that there is, here, a number of pros, some of them MF users... I'm curios to see if the strategy I plotted above will be really implemented, and if, in this case, some of our members shall get involved... ... even if I think that in such a situation, they'll probably ask the "beta users" not to give wide disclosures of their experience... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 28, 2008 Share #3 Posted September 28, 2008 I agree and thanks also. What Leica needs to do IMHO is get those 20 prototypes out to the Pro's let us play with them and see what improvements we can suggest before this even get's close to production. This way when it hits the streets there are no surprises to the system. There are no secrets now ,they introduced it now , so lets get the Pro's feeling good before they put money out. Leica has a nice reputation but also a bad service one. So they need to clear that up and get the S2 respect going with the Pro's . If folks like me are buying than that is reassurance to others as well. This just proves that if Pro's are willing to take the risk in a new system than it helps the general public. We can't miss a shot in the real world on the job with money on the line. This is a area that leica seems like they maybe understanding and the target they are going after is Pro's. They know full well they have to earn our trust , reason i said get these 20 camera's in our hands and talk about them. Even if the firmware and files are not perfect that is okay, we have to realize this is a work in process and the final production units will sing. I say take a different approach here. Instead of just releasing and guessing what it will be , let the cat out of the bag and let us work on it with them. Than we know for sure what we are getting before dropping our load of money. The more we know the more we will let our pockets loose sooner than later. Too much money involved on a leap of faith. i know it will be good but all the Pro's will want there T crossed and I's dotted before they will jump on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted September 28, 2008 Share #4 Posted September 28, 2008 Guy, I'm trying to send you a PM about this thread. Can you clear some messages out of your inbox? Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 28, 2008 Share #5 Posted September 28, 2008 Sorry Charlie ,I just did clean them out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted September 28, 2008 Share #6 Posted September 28, 2008 Guy, just resent it to you Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 28, 2008 Share #7 Posted September 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks you and did receive. Appreciate your thoughts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted September 28, 2008 Share #8 Posted September 28, 2008 Not yet a MF user due to its low fps, lack of 3:2 aspect ratio and poor high ISO performance, so the S2 is a good fit. I do have some needs I hope Leica would see fit to include. 2~3 fps multi-resolution RAW files ~ odd request I know (37mp, 18mp, 9mp sort of files) Remote camera trigger by pocket wizard (miniplug) Plus quiet mode. Need this for concert halls. Alex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
canlogic Posted September 28, 2008 Share #9 Posted September 28, 2008 I think maybe their service is improving. My M8 failed and I took it to my dealer friday the 16th September. It went out that afternoon. They had to replace at least one circuit board, reassemble the camera and then adjust a bunch of stuff. It arrived back in Montreal this past friday morning. Montreal to NJ is only about 400 miles but going through customs always slows things down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 28, 2008 Share #10 Posted September 28, 2008 Not yet a MF user due to its low fps, lack of 3:2 aspect ratio and poor high ISO performance, so the S2 is a good fit. I do have some needs I hope Leica would see fit to include. 2~3 fps multi-resolution RAW files ~ odd request I know (37mp, 18mp, 9mp sort of files) Remote camera trigger by pocket wizard (miniplug) Plus quiet mode. Need this for concert halls. Alex It is rated at 1.5 fps so reality is 3 frames in 2 seconds Multi res . No need just lower the percentage in C1 Pro for any size file you need. That way you never compromise the size of the raw files. They will always be 37 mpx strong. Only argument for this is space on your computer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted September 28, 2008 Share #11 Posted September 28, 2008 Does anyone else think that the S2 is eerily similar to the Pentax Medium format?? Obviously digital vs film but the same concept of looking and acting like a 35mm camera body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted September 29, 2008 Share #12 Posted September 29, 2008 Only argument for this is space on your computer. depends on your point of view, if a smaller RAW file gets you higher fps then it could widen the camera's appeal. 1.5fps (spec not yet fixed if I understand correctly) is still pretty modest. If I remember correctly using crop mode on the D2x the max frame rate goes from 5 to 8fps, so 60% faster. Now if Leica could do a smaller RAW from the full frame in exchange for 60% more fps........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waileong Posted September 29, 2008 Share #13 Posted September 29, 2008 Smallest form factor.-- you're forgetting the 120 folder cameras? Or the Mamiya 6/7? Or perhaps you're only comparing against digital MF? Leaf and Focal shutter.-- Hassy 200 series has both. Which means the digital back for the Hassy 200 can use both. Leica glass.-- True, but Hassy/Zeiss glass no slouch too. Type of Leica glass.-- Other than T/S, MF cameras have lots of options for glass. Battery life-- A Hassy 200/500 series will not run out of battery, just rewind if you need to and Sunny 16. Leica quality of build-- As mentioned, Hassy is no slouch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted September 29, 2008 Share #14 Posted September 29, 2008 depends on your point of view, if a smaller RAW file gets you higher fps then it could widen the camera's appeal. 1.5fps (spec not yet fixed if I understand correctly) is still pretty modest.If I remember correctly using crop mode on the D2x the max frame rate goes from 5 to 8fps, so 60% faster. Now if Leica could do a smaller RAW from the full frame in exchange for 60% more fps........ Thanks, Guy. Both Guys, I mean... A smaller file size also translates to less time in computer especially if I have tons of images that has no need for such high resolutions. I frequently shoot simultaneously with needs for both extremely high res and medium res. A single camera model would allow me have multiple bodies of the same model instead of multiple bodies with different models of cameras. I must say my needs may well be unusual in this. An alternative is to use JPGs but only if the quality is as good as the DNGs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted September 29, 2008 Share #15 Posted September 29, 2008 Smallest form factor......Or perhaps you're only comparing against digital MF? well spotted. In particular comparing to the small form factor MFD, that doesnt yet exist.... A digital Mamiya 7 would be pretty spectacular, but sadly it doesnt exist either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 29, 2008 Share #16 Posted September 29, 2008 Smallest form factor.-- you're forgetting the 120 folder cameras? Or the Mamiya 6/7? Or perhaps you're only comparing against digital MF? I cannot answer for Guy but what is the point of comparing a modern AF digital camera with a 120 folder? BTW, seen many of theses used by pros recently? I had the impression that the most used MF cameras were Blads, Mamiya 645 & 7, Rollei 6008 and Pentax 6x7... Leaf and Focal shutter.-- Hassy 200 series has both. Which means the digital back for the Hassy 200 can use both. Once again, one can wonder why Blad launched its new body with AF... Maybe because no body/back integration and the difficulty of precise manual focusing with a digital back were real problems. So maybe a Hassy 200 with a back is not really a competitor for the S2 just like the 120 folding. Leica glass.-- True, but Hassy/Zeiss glass no slouch too. Once again, the target is the Blad H. And it not using Zeiss glass. Type of Leica glass.-- Other than T/S, MF cameras have lots of options for glass. No when we are talking about the H cameras, once again. Battery life-- A Hassy 200/500 series will not run out of battery, just rewind if you need to and Sunny 16. We are not comparing a digital AF camera with a manual film one. Leica quality of build-- As mentioned, Hassy is no slouch. Was not. You are still talking about the V series. Your right but my guess is that you are focusing on 1/10th of Blad sales and R&D. My guess is that you did not notice that a few things changed in the photographic equipment these last years: now, we have AF, lightmeter and automatic exposure in the bodies, a digital part fully integrated for obvious ergonomic/post-processing/precision of adjustment reasons, motors to recock the shutter. Not so many people are really using 120 film folder and I doubt they will hesitate to switch to a Leica S2 because of the bigger size and the need for a battery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted September 29, 2008 Share #17 Posted September 29, 2008 .......What Leica needs to do IMHO is get those 20 prototypes out to the Pro's let us play with them and see what improvements we can suggest before this even get's close to production....... I would imagine that, should Leica chose to take this course, they would issue the cameras to folks who don't praise a particular system as being the best thing since instant coffee and then six months later sell up and move over to a competitor's system, praising this and the next best ... etc. and then come back saying "I told you Leica were the best" and hope, by making a lot of positive noise, to be included in a test programme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShyTot Posted September 29, 2008 Share #18 Posted September 29, 2008 What Leica needs to do IMHO is get those 20 prototypes out to the Pro's let us play with them and see what improvements we can suggest before this even get's close to production. Guy, you are so off-track. The S2 has been out with trusted Pro's and in at least 10 studios for development feedback. What was at PK was the early prototype. All the info needed is back at Solms and the interpretation of that feedback and subsequent modification is what is holding the S2 back from an immediate launch. If folks like me are buying than that is reassurance to others as well. Really ? Following anybody who is in and out of a system as quick as yourself is a massive mistake. If you pause for a moment, nobody has stayed with you through Canon/DMR/M8/Mamiya ZD/PhaseOne. How long did you have the ZD - minutes will do ? A Pro with credibility is worth watching. A gear-head is a liability. They know full well they have to earn our trust , The time when Leica wanted your input has passed. Trust me on that. Further, you been shooting MF for some 5 months now ?? I've been shooting MF for 35 years and digital backs for 5 years!! Others here maybe longer. Take stock, you're a newbie in this, not a worthy Leica MF adviser. Too much money involved on a leap of faith. i know it will be good but all the Pro's will want there T crossed and I's dotted before they will jump on it. The Pro's will base their decisions on valuable reference material from reliable and trusted sources. The risk here is that unknowing amateurs will think you're a Guru, in error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 29, 2008 Share #19 Posted September 29, 2008 Guy, you are so off-track. The S2 has been out with trusted Pro's and in at least 10 studios for development feedback. What was at PK was the early prototype. All the info needed is back at Solms and the interpretation of that feedback and subsequent modification is what is holding the S2 back from an immediate launch. If folks like me are buying than that is reassurance to others as well. Really ? Following anybody who is in and out of a system as quick as yourself is a massive mistake. If you pause for a moment, nobody has stayed with you through Canon/DMR/M8/Mamiya ZD/PhaseOne. How long did you have the ZD - minutes will do ? A Pro with credibility is worth watching. A gear-head is a liability. They know full well they have to earn our trust , The time when Leica wanted your input has passed. Trust me on that. Further, you been shooting MF for some 5 months now ?? I've been shooting MF for 35 years and digital backs for 5 years!! Others here maybe longer. Take stock, you're a newbie in this, not a worthy Leica MF adviser. Too much money involved on a leap of faith. i know it will be good but all the Pro's will want there T crossed and I's dotted before they will jump on it. The Pro's will base their decisions on valuable reference material from reliable and trusted sources. The risk here is that unknowing amateurs will think you're a Guru, in error. Guess that means i absolutely have no freaking clue than. If you think that than I could care less what you think but many do. Hmmm I do see your creditability running rampant around here also. BTW I have been shooting MF for 35 years also along with 8x10,4x5,35 and more systems than I could name in one sentence. Of course obviously you know better than me and just like to make shit talk. Also Mr Troll if you can't come up with a real name than to me your just some little chair hugger and should be ignored by all. Obviously you fit in this category, If you want to demean someone than have the balls to let us know who you are Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 29, 2008 Share #20 Posted September 29, 2008 I would imagine that, should Leica chose to take this course, they would issue the cameras to folks who don't praise a particular system as being the best thing since instant coffee and then six months later sell up and move over to a competitor's system, praising this and the next best ... etc. and then come back saying "I told you Leica were the best" and hope, by making a lot of positive noise, to be included in a test programme. Leica has never been in MF digital. I make choses for my business needs period. The DMR and M8 are still some of the best systems in 35mm to date period. Never said any different and would still love to own both systems no questions. Please show me a post I said anything different. If I am not getting paid i don't want any part of a test system or if it won't benefit me in some way in my business than I have no interest. The ZD turned out to be to slow functionally. My mistake never told anyone to buy it that needed speed . Even told my buyer that straight out but of course Pete you don't get that part of things Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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