So Where Are We, R Users?

[Chiefey]

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I'm sure glad I can't afford any of these new products. Otherwise I wouldn't be happy shooting film with my ancient R3 and new/used R8.

Still saving my pennies for a DMR. Hope they're still around when I save up the $$$ to purchase one.

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[Robert Kohlman]

As a 43-year loyal Leica-R user, I'd like to add my comments on the latest news releases from Leica at Photokina.

 

I purchased my first Leica ( Leicaflex- standard Mk I) in college in 1965 for a whopping $464 USD.... that was nearly double to triple the price of Pentax Spotmatic, Zeiss Contaflex, Nikon-F, or Minolta SRT. I was so impressed with the fit and finish , I spent 2 weeks playing with the camera without ever putting film in it. My first picture, shot on Kodachrome, was a magnificent sunset which I still treasure today. From that moment on, I have been accumulating Leica-M and Leica-R equipment in hopes that, as I approached retirement age, I could rationalize the mortgaging of my youth for the best cameras and lenses on the planet. Obsolescence was not possible with past Leitz policy concerning lens retrofit. Then came the digital age....need I say more? Yes, DMR was a good stop-gap measure, but not all of us with pre-R8 SLR's could afford the upgrade to R-8 or R-9...plus DMR. Now fast forward to Photokina 2008. Leica announces the S2 medium format system, M-8.2, etc., BUT NO R-10 ! Dr Kaufmann says "R-10 is in the Works" Splendid--but how long will it take to get to market and at what price?

 

Hopefully Leica did their marketing homework and found that the digital medium format is where their bread and butter will be, and the technology and revenue attained from this system will enhance future products including R-10. This would be analogous to Porsche AG building SUV's to subsidize the further development for their 911-series of sports cars. Hey, guess what? Porsche made the Cayenne SUV and it was a money maker, at least here in the North American market. The last auto race I attended, there were almost as many Cayenne SUV's in the " Porsche Park" as there were 911's. Maybe Leica is on to something. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one, but I will not wait an eternity for R-10. I hope Leica will debut R-10 before the next Photokina.

 

Best wishes,

 

Robert

[zapp]

If you could survive with a film based R system with some digital attachment, you can do that as long as film exists. I am not happy with no real R10 announcement, but I am quite happy to see that Leica as a company shows innovation far beyond our expectation. The S2 is a big bummer and must be the key camera for Leica for the next 2+ years to come.

What the R system really needs are a couple new lenses/designs as well as a competable fully digital camera. The problem is that now one will switch towards the R system just for a new camera which is basically around from Canon, Nikon, etc - although it is frustrating to see that Leica can not deliver right now. Money on lenses and an R10 will not pay of in the long or even the short run. With the S2 they attract a new segment in the market - places where Canon, Nikon etc can not compete. If this pays off in the next two years in terms of an R10, M9, S3 it is well worth the wait.

Before a hard announcement - including features - of the R10 most people will not buy R glass, including me. I may add an M for wide angle usage, waiting for a possible merger in form of the M/R with live view. If both systems are to be merged in the near future - 2-3 years - there is no need to even introduce the R10, but extent the M lenses and wait until you have a product ready that takes M lenses as well as R by adapter. Which is exactly what Leica just did, extent the range of M lenses, wait with the release of something that may be called the R10 and search for a new market segment with the S2.

[ruiespanhol]

Unless Leica has another announcement up its sleeve, perhaps it is not out of order to take stock.

 

The M community has several fantastic new lenses and a tweeked camera.

 

In a bid to create demand in a new market, or to gain the interest of new, vice legacy, customers, Leica gives us a magnificent new digital reflex camera system.

 

And those of us keen on the R get,,,,what?, ,,, nothing,..., for two more years....

 

Let's look at this strategy for a moment.

 

My bottom line is that, at the very least, it would have been well to have given us two new R lenses, even if they had AF, which, of course, we couldn't use yet. But that would be better than the nothing we have. That would have demonstrated something approaching real commitment to a digital 35mm R.

 

As it is, though, the last innovation for the R camera was the DMR, and that has been out of production for quite a while. No R camera has been produced for well over a year. No new lenses for quite a while. And we are supposed to be happy to have to wait another two years for a normally formatted DSLR.

 

Is Leica expecting a bit much from its R clients?

 

The S camera is of no interest to me. As an amateur, I refuse to even think about the likely near $100,000 it would take to purchase an entire new system. It makes sense for some pros and those for whom $ is no object. Finding satisfaction in putting R lenses onto an S2 is laughable, even if it will be doable.

 

Many companies have introduced new camera systems in a plethora of formats larger than 35mm (and, of course, smaller than 35mm). Only a few are still around. I wish Leica well with the S2.

 

But by the time mid 2010, probably Photokina 2010, which is later than mid, rolls around, the R community will have waited six years for a digital camera. I hope everyone's DMRs last that long.

 

It is little wonder to me after this Photokina that R users move on out of dispair.

 

I Full agree whit you!

It was much time to whait for new R Digital body,and Leica dont respect the R comunity and the costumers.

For sure the S system in noy for me and for many the Leica users because most of then are amateurs like you and me.

If Leica whants to catch new costumers(the Pros) whit the S-system well they can but how many?

I say to Leica one thing I´m tirred of whait for the new R 10:mad:

For me is game over.

I will go for Canon.

[mhoersch]

I feel both: happiness and frustraion. Happiness on account of the anouncement that there will be an R10, after all. Frustration because we don't know when, for what price, and with what features.

 

The strategy of concentrating their developing power on the S2 and later using components like image processor and autofocus for the smaller and (hopefully) less expensive R10 seems to make a lot of sense to me.

 

What doesn't, in my opinion, is to come out with the S2 at least half a year before the scheduled start of production. To say that Leica has introduced the S2 is not quite correct: they have announced their intent, but all you can see at photokina is a mockup in a glass case and Kaufmann talking about it to Wim Wenders, of all people. LFI reports that the shutter hasn't even been developed yet. What would be needed right now is S2 sample images of such superb quality that the pros start placing orders before leaving photokina.

 

Instead, what Leica have really done is letting everyone know, including their competitors, what they intend to do next year. Throwing an unfinished M8 on the market in 2006 turned out not to be such a great idea - hence body recalls, IR filters, firmware repairs, upgrade program, and M8.2. Announcing the leading edge technology of the S2 at least half a year before production starts (what if it takes longer?) does not look that much wiser to me.

 

I do want to get an R10 some time and I hope my DMR will survive till then. So let's just hope and pray that they don't screw up this time - it might be the last and final one.

[stunsworth]

...all you can see at photokina is a mockup in a glass case.

 

It wasn't a mock up. there were working versions of the cameras.

[Guest stnami]

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M is for minor upgrade:p

R is for ratshit:

S is for swallow ( visa card)

[stuny]

R10 greenlight, rough timetable (2010) and features (autofocus but takes current R lenses), trickle-down technology from S2, full frame sensor) are in David Farkas's site, under his blog on Fotokina. Here's a short quote (he has an extensive blog):

 

The R10 has already been green-lit, fast-tracked, whatever. Technology from the S2 will find its way into a smaller body with a 24x36mm CCD chip that takes all current R lenses (no adapter). New AF R lenses will be introduced as well. The S2 will launch in Summer 2009, with the R10 coming (most likely early 2010). Why did Leica go with the S-System at this point, instead of the R-System? They didn’t want to launch a me-too product. If the full frame R10 came out now, everyone would compare it to the FF Canons and Nikons. Does it shoot as fast? Does it have low noise at 6400 ISO? Does it slice bread? Etc. Instead, the S2 creates a new, unique flagship product for Leica. It is a true professional tool, not just a fascination. All the R&D and tech that went into the S can be carried into the R system. Think Nikon’s approach with the D3/D700/D300 and this may be where Leica is headed.

 

You can find the full blog at: Dale Photo & Digital.

[earleygallery]

If the DMR isn't for you, buy a Canon now, use your R glass on it, by the time the R10 launches you'd be wanting to upgrade the by then outdated Canon anyway.

[jaapv]

M is for minor upgrade:p

R is for ratshit:

S is for swallow ( visa card)

I think you forgot to take your pills today...

[Guest stnami]

nahh I had my dose of jaapvitamins

[jaapv]

Didn't agree with you too well then - have a blue and a pink pill too...

[Guest stnami]

have a blue and a pink pill too...

.now now typecasting them into girl and boy pills is etnogrāfiski nepareizi

[wattsy]

Now is a very good time to be an R user, IMHO

 

I'm not sure and wouldn't be surprised if Leica allow the R line to fizzle out (maybe post-R10) - particularly if they can make a big success out of the S system. Correct me if I'm wrong but Kaufmann's background is with companies that sell business to business. That's were the real profit is for technology-based companies of Leica's size. I suspect that Kaufmann recognises that Leica may be better suited as a specialised optical and technology based company selling genuinely professional grade equipment to professional customers. The consumer market (in which I'm including mass market 'pro' products) may be better left to the bigger players like Canon, Nikon and Sony. With the introduction of the S system, Leica is clearly attempting to move into the high end professional arena - the domain of well paid advertising and fashion photographers rather than that of the jobbing weekend wedding pro and the well healed rank amateur. This may be an indication of the future for Leica.

[jaapv]

.now now typecasting them into girl and boy pills is etnogrāfiski nepareizi

Maybe even neculturni...

[roguewave]

Glad to see the optimism among fellow DMR users. I get inquiries all the time from dealers and other Leica users asking to buy mine. What a great investment this has turned out to be in work product and artistic satisfaction. I've used the Canons & Nikons. Very fine photojournalism cameras, especially in low light. The can't hold a candle to the colors and definition I get with my DMR.

 

November marks my 1st year of using this exquisite kit. These announcements of the future R products are a ray of Sunshine in the pall that 's been cast by the world financial crisis. I believe we have every right to feel good about the vector of Leica's future and the development of new, innovative & stunning products from their engineers. It remains a singular honor & privilege to use this instruments in the pursuit of my artistic expression.

 

PARTY ON!

[RobMac]

My bet - the S will become, with the passage of time, the new R.

 

While I'd have like to have seen an R10, Leica put the new S line and all the resources it sucked up and will continue to ahead of what would seem more 'logical' given their installed customer base (and the most competitive market) - a replacement R.

 

Promises and signs on empty display cases are nice, but Leica has been there before. Leica didn't want the R10 at the show becasue it would be compared against the D700, 5DII, etc..? With all respect, what do you think will happen in late 2010 IF an R10 comes out? 18 mos in DSLR land is a life time.

 

The S will have some serious challenges, but in concept the S gives them the ability to focus on a different market segment. One not populated (as yet) by Canon or Nikon, etc and which sells gear that sits in roughly the S2's price range.

 

A new R10 would put them into the hyper-competitive eat-your-own-young DSLR market with gear priced at close to MFDB levels that will always be compared against constantly-churning D__ and 5D__, 1D_, Sony ___ models. Bear in mind that even if the R10 were a RUN-AWAY success, the best they could hope for would be a tough-won and hard-to-hold miniscule share of the market. Then there is the constant drain on R&D as new prospective customers clamor for more MPs, etc., every 18 mos and as you strive to maintain a 3rd lens line. What pays the price? The M line? The S?

 

As CEO who has to run a business, if you could step around that feeding-frenzy, yet still supply a top-end 'DSLR' to a higher-margin market (MF) that is just starting it's growth bulge, has far, far fewer competitors, churns it's products at a slower (albeit increasing) rate and populated by more professionals who will showcase your product, why wouldn't you? Most CEOs aren't masochists. Kaufmann is a wealthy enthusiast but he's not about to throw the firm into a bear-den if there is a way around doing so.

 

While keeping R customers happy would be nice, when push comes to shove... Lets also be realistic, Kaufmann KNOWS that if no R comes to pass, many if not most of any 'I'm PO'd" R customers will still step up, buy an S_ (if it were the only non-M Leica game in town) and still sings it praises on various forums.

 

Hate to day say it, but come 2010 I think we'll all be sitting back and wondering what happened to the R line. If I were still an R user and in the market for a new Leica DSLR, I think I'd forget any R10 and start saving for an S2.

[gyoung]

snip

 

I'd say that things in the R world were definitely looking up, and I am saving my pennies for my "R10 in 2010".

 

Has a good ring to it.

 

 

Thank you, Dr Kaufmann.

 

Thats after you've paid for the R8 repair then is it Andy?

Maybe I'll swap my Nikon stuff for an SL2 and start saving too...

 

Gerry

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[jaapv]

I think we may be surprised. Even in the DSLR world, there might be a niche. Let's trust Leica to find it. . Basically theyonly need a platform for their lenses..

[stuny]

Rob Mac -

 

If we take Leica's word a face value, there will be an R10, and I tend to trust that statement. Barring development failure and/or company failure I think they will get there.

 

I also rather doubt that of those waiting for an R10 will include any significant number of people with the funds for an S2 body and three lenses, so jumping to that platform is very unlikely. Aditionally, look at all the comments on this Forum about wanting backward compatability with existing R lenses -- a sign that there may be less willingness than you postulate to spend on a totally new system.

 

Finally, as Ben writes so eloquently above, the ancient DMR still produces to Ben's and my eyes better quality images than the recent offerings from N & C, so I find little reason to doubt that an R10 would lack staying power beyond 18 months.