Leica Digital CL Poll

[Half-Handed]

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Take the point, but Leica is actually developing things people don't massively want, like the Digilux 3.

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[jbstitt]

Read the following review of the G1 from Panasonic and Oly closely -

Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Digital Camera - Hands-On Preview - The Imaging Resource!

 

Note that this camera has a lot of advanced features that really look interesting. This could be the successor to the Digilux line and might bring me back to Leica from the C cameras. What also really caught my attention were the statements that they use a much shorter lens to sensor distance AND that they could have made the camera much smaller but did not think the American market would accept that. Maybe this version is for the soccer mom, but look at the technology they are talking about. I see the potential for a lower cost "auto focus" or maybe a manual with M lenses and adapter rangefinder type camera. My mouth is watering, My breathing is short and rapid. My fingers are twitching!

[John Thawley]

Leica CL. Give me this with a good APS-C sensor please.

 

 

 

This in digital? Be still my beating heart. Man would I love that.

 

JT

[Nei1]

count me in,sooner 35 50 70 but just one frame at a time.

[j. white]

While I find the idea of a lower-cost alternative to the M8 quite appealing, the term, "Digital CL" doesn't adequately describe a feature set that I'm willing to commit my dollars or even a vote to.

 

As an exercise in communicating customer desire, this poll may be served by outlining which features are important, desireable and required in such a camera.

 

My 2 cents...

[elgenper]

What worries me a bit in this context is that Leica calls the D-lux 4 "Son of M8"....

 

Seems unlikely they would give that name to a b*st*rd if there were a legitimate small brother waiting....

[Ruhayat]

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What worries me a bit in this context is that Leica calls the D-lux 4 "Son of M8".....

 

Interesting. That implies they have made the image quality and colour balance closer to that of the M8? My D-Lux 3 has good IQ but the colours, although they pop, are just too plasticky and not like the M8 or even the Digilux 2 at all.

[scho]

Yes, but if Leica has no interest then I'd be more than happy to see Zeiss produce a diigital ZI.

[martensh]

saw this proposal only recently, would, however, go and get it right away.

[geoff]

...If a modestly priced, smaller, M-lens compatible digital version of the CL came out, how many would buy one on the spot?....

 

 

Are people interested in a digital Leica CL because it would be more compact, cheaper than a M8, or both?

 

A smaller body alone would not constitute a reduction in price. So, what features would be cut from a regular M8 to reduce the price?

 

Or, would people be willing to pay a price closer to, or even more than, a M8 to engineer everything into a more compact package?

 

Would the camera still have enough of an market, to warrant development and production, if features were cut or it cost the same or more than a M8?

 

 

Geoff

myspace.com/geoffotos

[wattsy]

under 2k, compact, same sensor as m8, quiet shutter, limited lenses 28,35,50.

 

The nearest things to 2K (assuming you are talking dollars) that Leica have introduced are the new 21 and 24 viewfinders. I think it's fair to conclude that there will never be a new Leica made camera selling for 2K.

[lct]

...what features would be cut from a regular M8 to reduce the price?...

Same as for the CL. For instance an APS-C sensor, a smaller base for the rangefinder, only 3 framelines (28, 35, 50 like the R-D1 for inst.). Also due to the smaller RF fast lenses like 50/1, 75/1.4 or 90/2 could not be focused accurately at full aperture. And of course a smaller and cheaper body than the M8. In other words the CL in a digital world.

[wattsy]

of course every leica user will buy something like a digital cl. leica simply does not listen.

 

I'm afraid I don't share the same fascination for the digital CL. The traditional M sized body and the smaller lenses (35 Summicron, etc.) are the perfect size for me.

[thrid]

Leica needs a tiered product line like every other camera company on the planet.

 

There has to be a substantially cheaper alternative to the M8 in the line up.

 

For all I care they could introduce a DX format RF camera, with special DX lenses.

The chip could come from Sony (think Nikon D300). Build it in Eastern Europe or Asia if that keeps the cost down.

 

Price should be around 1500 - 1800 euros for the body. That's still more than a D300, but Leica does not benefit from the same economies of scale as Nikon does.

 

Oh, and put some weather sealing on the darn thing.

[wattsy]

Leica needs a tiered product line like every other camera company on the planet.

 

Do Hasselblad sell cheap cut-down stuff to those who can't afford the H system? This idea that Leica must sell a cheaper line to attract a wider range of customers is nonsense. Leica struggles at the moment to serve the customers it already has - why would it want to widen the customer base even further by selling a 'low-cost' entry level M camera (presumably at little or no profit)? If anything, Leica are going to push themselves further upmarket and position themselves alongside Hasselblad, Phase One, etc, leaving the consumer market to the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony.

[andit]

Hi all,

 

Count me in on this one too. Even if Leica made use a smaller than APS-C sensor (such as a 4/3 sensor), if it can use M lenses I would take one immediately. And keeping in true Leica conformity, please make it with a "film like wind lever" instead of a motor drive.

 

Another idea would be to make a digital back for the CL, modify the original tooling and put it back into production (sounds like a DMR now).

 

Andreas

 

I wonder whatever happened to the idea of the digital film. A couple of years ago I read an article in Popular Photography of a company developing a sensor that was as flexible as film, with all its brains etc in a 35mm film spool. Ok, you had now instant review of the shot (no LCD screen etc), but you were to be able to load it any film camera.

[John Thawley]

To be honest, I don't know how anyone inside Leica's marketing and product departments can put the C-Lux 3, D-Lux 4, Digilux 3 and M8 (and I have 3 of the 4 in front of me) on a table and not see the flaw in the progression of the line. It makes no sense. If you put the four on an aptitude test for grade school children asking "which camera is out of sequence"... I think most would pick the Digilux 3. Price wise it fits... market place it does not.

 

There needs to be a proper flow in the market tier... $500, $800, $2400, $6500 is ok from a dollar stand point... but from a size and style standpoint, there's a hole.

 

A nice $2500 digital rangefinder that handles a handful of nice small primes would raise Leica's stock in the "real" world.

 

Just an aside... Toyota makes a car called the Scion. When I inquired with a marketing rep, why Toyota decided to come out with this inexpensive line, he replied, "because we wanted to have an entry level product that would introduce customers to the Toyota / Lexus way of customer service. So, they could experience our ownership and customer process."

 

Now... I think with the D-Lux (Panasonic) products, Leica has those low-end products in place (and I've experienced good service with my D-Lux 3 repair.) But, using the Toyota marketing model, they put overlap into their 3 product lines. There is Scion overlap in the Toyota line and there is Toyota overlap in the Lexus line. Not a lot of overlap... basically it's just one platofrm in each... but it's there and we all know, it's successful.

 

The goal is that Scion customers "grow" to become Toyota buyers and Toyota customers grow to become Lexus buyers.

 

So... $2500-$3000 for a digital range finder is by no means a "low-end" camera. But it could be a great stepping stone for FUTURE M8 or other high-end series Leicas.

 

Just a thought... I could be wrong.

 

JT

[thrid]

Do Hasselblad sell cheap cut-down stuff to those who can't afford the H system? This idea that Leica must sell a cheaper line to attract a wider range of customers is nonsense. Leica struggles at the moment to serve the customers it already has - why would it want to widen the customer base even further by selling a 'low-cost' entry level M camera (presumably at little or no profit)? If anything, Leica are going to push themselves further upmarket and position themselves alongside Hasselblad, Phase One, etc, leaving the consumer market to the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony.

 

Cheaper doesn't necessarily mean crap. You can make a quality product and price it competitively. 'Competitively' being the key word here. Leicas have never been cheap, but they weren't outrageously expensive either.

 

We have reached the point where the asking price has exceeded the perceived value of the product to many consumers. At this point only people for whom money is no object or are in absolute need of the product, are the main buyers.

 

I could afford an M8, but I feel that the price being asked exceeds what the camera is worth. It's the same reason why I won't buy a $600 designer sweater. For all of it's quirks, the M8.2 is a nice camera, but it sure isn't worth over $6000 for the body.

 

What you are describing is the same high and mighty philosophy that killed off the German photo industry in the 1960's. It almost killed Apple in the 1990's. Hasselblad isn't exactly thriving, either.

 

I don't know what your financial perspective is. Perhaps you are financially so well off that dropping $10,000 for an M8 and a single lens is not an issue for you, but Leica's current pricing structure has very little to do with the real world.

 

As I have mentioned before, I have spoken to several Leica dealers and almost universally there was a lot of head shaking in regards to the new prices. They are finding it difficult to move product, especially in the face of fierce competition from cameras like the D700 and now 5D mk II. Leica can't survive on selling 250 Noctilux a year and develop new digital products.

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Hallo,

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[wattsy]

I don't know what your financial perspective is. Perhaps you are financially so well off that dropping $10,000 for an M8 and a single lens is not an issue for you, but Leica's current pricing structure has very little to do with the real world.

 

No, Leica's current (and future) pricing is very much an issue for me personally but that doesn't change how I perceive the direction Leica are intending to go. Kaufmann is perfectly entitled to have a vision for the company which, I suspect, means moving away from consumer level products (however expensive) towards truly professional grade equipment like the S system. I simply don't see why Leica will also want to pursue markets that revolve around 'more affordable' products.

[4season]

Same as for the CL. For instance an APS-C sensor, a smaller base for the rangefinder, only 3 framelines (28, 35, 50 like the R-D1 for inst.). Also due to the smaller RF fast lenses like 50/1, 75/1.4 or 90/2 could not be focused accurately at full aperture. And of course a smaller and cheaper body than the M8. In other words the CL in a digital world.

 

I'm glad someone mentioned the rangefinder base, because lowered accuracy probably wouldn't work for me. It may have been okay in the days of film, but not with a digital sensor like the M8's.

 

I think the real digital CL you guys are looking for is probably the Micro Four-Thirds Olympus product. All it needs is for someone to give it a more rangefinder-like form.