adan Posted September 13, 2008 Share #221 Posted September 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Alan: I think that LL thread is a bit dated (among other things it mentions that the Sinar M only accepts Sinar's digital back - whereas Sinar's web site NOW says it will accept backs from other makers - market pressure no doubt). I saw an original Leica S1 again today (local shop keeps one on display, not for sale). Kludgy, huge and heavy, but had a lot of pixels for its day It does seem like there are lots of theoretical possibilities for something that fits behind R lenses and takes pictures, from the Sinar to the new micro-4/3rds Lumix DLSR (digital single-lens "reflexless"). I doubt that Leica's agreement with Jenoptik is a red herring - even if the Sinar M itself is. I'll bet a lot of Jenoptik/Sinar technology winds up in whatever Leica does (if anything) to maintain and expand the R line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 13, 2008 Posted September 13, 2008 Hi adan, Take a look here Some News (or Rumor) About R10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pascal_meheut Posted September 13, 2008 Share #222 Posted September 13, 2008 All this MF story reminds me the M5 precedent. Unnecessary so-called improvements w/o customers to buy them. But Leica can do it for sure! This is one way of putting it and I'm sure not impressed by Leica's marketing capabilities. But on another hand, Leica users are quite known to refuse anything new first and later on find it quite interesting. The M5 is appreciated nowadays as well as the R8 for instance. Also the M5 appeared at a time where everybody was switching to SLR and all other rangefinder manufacturers were moved out of business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 13, 2008 Share #223 Posted September 13, 2008 ...Leica users are quite known to refuse anything new first and later on find it quite interesting... Nice sociological approach Pascal but would you be really interested in paying €10K or more to use your Leica lenses in cropped mode on a MF body? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 13, 2008 Share #224 Posted September 13, 2008 How many active R users out there? Too few for making profitable any new R camera or any update of R lenses. And even worse: a declining number even if Leica releases a R10 camera. How can Leica get new users with the R system in the Canon/Nikon/Sony/Pentax's playground? In the past, good mechanics and optics marked the difference. Nowadays it's electronics and software. Only a "different" product can define a niche in which survive, rangefinders, medium format, modular systems for studio work... And I hope those rumours about Nikon entering the MF market are only that, mere rumours... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 13, 2008 Share #225 Posted September 13, 2008 And still, that’s not the way Leica is going to take. I know, Michael, but I would so dearly like to have a slightly more handy Leica R body than the DMR for my R lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 13, 2008 Share #226 Posted September 13, 2008 Only a "different" product can define a niche in which survive, rangefinders, medium format, modular systems for studio work... . I have said before, Leica need to think outside of the box. They don't need to (and can't) compete with Canon and Nikon and the rest, unless they do something completely different, in which case, they will have the market to themselves. It's time for Leica to have a "Barnack" moment. Leave the Japanese completely gob-smacked with the audacity of the idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 13, 2008 Share #227 Posted September 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nice sociological approach Pascal but would you be really interested in paying €10K or more to use your Leica lenses in cropped mode on a MF body? No indeed. I started to sell my R lenses for this reason (and because I need AF now. Hitting 40 has been quite hard for my eyes). But let's see what Leica will announce before judging their strategy. The worst is not certain and they may come with a nice camera even if most of us cannot afford it. Or maybe this is the "other range of cameras" they were talking about 1 year ago and the R10 will come anyway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 13, 2008 Share #228 Posted September 13, 2008 Hi Alan: I think that LL thread is a bit dated (among other things it mentions that the Sinar M only accepts Sinar's digital back - whereas Sinar's web site NOW says it will accept backs from other makers - market pressure no doubt). I saw an original Leica S1 again today (local shop keeps one on display, not for sale). Kludgy, huge and heavy, but had a lot of pixels for its day It does seem like there are lots of theoretical possibilities for something that fits behind R lenses and takes pictures, from the Sinar to the new micro-4/3rds Lumix DLSR (digital single-lens "reflexless"). The Sinar M link is a couple of years old. That is the point. Not much enthusiasm for it then, way less now. (That was one of the few discussions about it that I could find.) The S1 was a scanning back with a lens attached. I think that would be pretty easy for any company to make. Rollei sold a scaning back quite some time ago. I think something in the realm of the micro 4/3rds concept could result in a modern day interpretation of what was the original appeal of a Leica... small, light, versatile, quiet, inconspicuous. As for using R lenses, drop a full frame Sony sensor into the M body, give it an R mount and live view, replace the viewfinder with Panasonic's EVF, add a bit of a contoured grip... done. If they can add sensor based IS that would be a plus. This way they might have some kind of solution for the R users in case they find it too expensive to totally re-engineer a digital SLR body. And if they make an M mount version, it could use M lenses. (Well perhaps not some of the widest ones.). If they think it through perhaps there can be an M to R hybrid system that preserves the R linkage and auto diaphragm. Then the camera can work with both M and R lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 13, 2008 Share #229 Posted September 13, 2008 The Sinar M link is a couple of years old. That is the point. Not much enthusiasm for it then, way less now. (That was one of the few discussions about it that I could find.) The S1 was a scanning back with a lens attached. I think that would be pretty easy for any company to make. Rollei sold a scaning back quite some time ago. I think something in the realm of the micro 4/3rds concept could result in a modern day interpretation of what was the original appeal of a Leica... small, light, versatile, quiet, inconspicuous. As for using R lenses, drop a full frame Sony sensor into the M body, give it an R mount and live view, replace the viewfinder with Panasonic's EVF, add a bit of a contoured grip... done. If they can add sensor based IS that would be a plus. Apart from the fact that the flange distance would be completely wrong, and no R user that I know would ever consider an EVF as any substitute for an R viewfinder, what you have described is basically a Digilux 3 with a Sony sensor. And look how well that sold... That is no substitute at all for a new digital R. I'd stick to the Canon stuff, if I were you, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 13, 2008 Share #230 Posted September 13, 2008 Apart from the fact that the flange distance would be completely wrong, and no R user that I know would ever consider an EVF as any substitute for an R viewfinder, what you have described is basically a Digilux 3 with a Sony sensor. And look how well that sold... That is no substitute at all for a new digital R. I was thinking that the flange distance could be stepped out of course. How hard is this? And this would be 24 megapixels full frame, not 8 megapixels 4/3rds. And it would be a much better viewfinder, although perhaps not as good as on an reflex. But the big advantage would be that it would beat having nothing and would be some kind of foundation to build on for the future. If they make a hybrid lens mount system it could give more versatility to the M lenses and a functional solution for existing R owners. I think the SLR concept will be a thing of the past once EVFs get good enough. How long that will take may be shorter than we think. I'd like to see the viewfinder in the Panasonic before I jump to conclusions. Consider that a lot of photographers use DSLRs for studio work and a good EVF makes more sense. Many still life and interior photographers work directly to a computer and barely look through the camera once it is positioned. Zooming in on the EVF to check focus is very easy. The way I see the hybrid lens mount system working is it would have a large basic mounting system in front of the sensor. This would be close enough to the sensor to leave room for specific lens adapters. One mount could be for new electronically coupled AF lenses that could be introduced with the camera or in the future. Another mount could fit in for the M lenses and another one for the R lenses. Nothing would preclude Leica from making adapters to work with other lenses. Getting rid of the mirror and having the lens mount closer to the sensor would give more capability for tilt/shift lenses. At least they have the basic body, shutter and electronics on the M8 to start from. Of course they can also do nothing or try to come out with a Canon - Sony - Nikon, copy cat system. I doubt if it will turn off R users any more than having no digital camera. But I do think the market base would be too small regardless. And of course Leica is too conservative for this. Sorry if I'm some kind of thorn in your side Andy. That is not my intention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 13, 2008 Share #231 Posted September 13, 2008 "No" to hybrids. "No" to compromises. Definitely "NO" to EVF. "Yes" to keeping all Leica lenses (M and R) full frame and full quality, that work on both film and digital bodies. One day there will be a full frame digital M. One day there will be a full frame digital R. Let's make sure that our investment is properly protected and not hobbled by some god-awful "digital-only" nonsense. There are plenty out there for those that want to go that route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 13, 2008 Share #232 Posted September 13, 2008 Well, if the new camera is really going to be the S2 (and I'm still a bit doubtful because it may be a rumour I started....) the fact remains that the name R10 has been patented by Leica and there has been talk at Solms of an R10. So I still don't rule out the possibility of two new cameras.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 13, 2008 Share #233 Posted September 13, 2008 CDI had a picture of an R10 in the latest edition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted September 13, 2008 Share #234 Posted September 13, 2008 Well, if the new camera is really going to be the S2 (and I'm still a bit doubtful because it may be a rumour I started....) the fact remains that the name R10 has been patented by Leica and there has been talk at Solms of an R10. So I still don't rule out the possibility of two new cameras.... I am sure you mean Leica applied for Trademark/Tradename protection for the 'word' R10:) Jaap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 13, 2008 Share #235 Posted September 13, 2008 "No" to hybrids. "No" to compromises. Definitely "NO" to EVF. "Yes" to keeping all Leica lenses (M and R) full frame and full quality, that work on both film and digital bodies. One day there will be a full frame digital M. One day there will be a full frame digital R. Let's make sure that our investment is properly protected and not hobbled by some god-awful "digital-only" nonsense. There are plenty out there for those that want to go that route. There are two basic choices - 1. Preserve tradition. 2. Have maximum photographic capabilities in a system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 13, 2008 Share #236 Posted September 13, 2008 2. Have maximum photographic capabilities in a system. Which you wouldn't get with some sort of micro4/3 system with an EVF... (IMHO) Let's agree to disagree on this one, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 13, 2008 Share #237 Posted September 13, 2008 I am sure you mean Leica applied for Trademark/Tradename protection for the 'word' R10:) Jaap So I did. Just sloppy.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share #238 Posted September 13, 2008 "No" to hybrids. "No" to compromises. Definitely "NO" to EVF. "Yes" to keeping all Leica lenses (M and R) full frame and full quality, that work on both film and digital bodies. Here's something that will crack you up, Andy. Look how Panasonic is marketing the Micro 4/3 in Japan, it's just a photographic edition of Desperate Housewives. Scroll down to the bottom of the page below and you can see more. ƒpƒiƒ\ƒjƒbƒNAuDMC-G1v‚Ì”•\‰ï‚ðŠJà If one still considers himself a man, he would never buy it. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted September 13, 2008 Share #239 Posted September 13, 2008 Here's something that will crack you up, Andy. Look how Panasonic is marketing the Micro 4/3 in Japan, it's just a photographic edition of Desperate Housewives. Scroll down to the bottom of the page below and you can see more. ƒpƒiƒ\ƒjƒbƒNAuDMC-G1v‚Ì”*•\‰ï‚ðŠJà If one still considers himself a man, he would never buy it. LOL so besides some of your other prejudices, you have an obvious gender issue as well ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share #240 Posted September 13, 2008 so besides some of your other prejudices, you have an obvious gender issue as well ? Blame Panasonic, they have some serious discrimination against male. The slogan they chose for the camera's commercial is "A Camera For The Ladies". LOL Take it easy, it's only a joke, ok? Let's get back on topic, my point is: I don't want EVF on my camera. No way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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