Some News (or Rumor) About R10

[mooky]

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My camera is better than your camera, nah, nah,,,,,,,,,,, give it a rest.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Even though I haven't been posting anything for months and months, I still check the forum almost every day, waiting for some real news about a DSLR by Leica, whatever be the name.

 

Frustration and disppointment are still growing in my mind, and when I read about Andreas' Leica Survey, I answered very negatively, with a personal mail to Andreas about the way Mr Kaufmann treats his trustful customers. Of course, Andreas did not reply, which seems now to be the usual way at Leica.

 

But I still am part of the people who loved their DMR (I still miss my stolen one), and with the help of dear friends, I have rebuilt my R lenses collection, waiting for a new really digital body. So I am very afraid by the idea of Leica changing its bayonet mount and the possibility of no retro-compatibility of a new body with the lenses I possess now... I am using these lenses on a Canon 450D, but the thrill is not there.

 

These are the reasons for which I have been waiting, in silence... I really wish I could be wrong...

 

Gérard

 

 

There are quite reasonably priced used DMRs on the market....

[AlanG]

...The suggestion that a 5D with R lens mount could be a suitable replacement for the DMR is not something I'd be remotely interested in.

 

I never suggested that you would be. Somebody else said that he thought the 5D replacement and Leica lenses would be a good choice for him.

 

If anyone cares to read my earlier posts, what I said was that whatever Leica comes out with (if anything), it now faces more competition from several new lower priced ($3000) full frame high resolution cameras. If you don't agree with that point, that is fine by me.

 

If you are currently happy with the DMR, that is fine, you don't even need to consider buying a new camera. But Leica isn't making or selling DMRs anymore, so they aren't collecting any income from DSLR sales. And I bet R lens sales are pretty low too.

 

The odds of me going out and buying a used 1.3 crop camera that is several generations old is less than nil. Regardless of whether it is capable of producing great quality.

[wildlightphoto]

If anyone cares to read my earlier posts, what I said was that whatever Leica comes out with (if anything), it now faces more competition from several new lower priced ($3000) full frame high resolution cameras. If you don't agree with that point, that is fine by me.

 

And I do disagree, because (as I mentioned in my earlier response) the $3000 full-frame cameras are not Leica's target. After all, 5D doesn't compete with the 1Ds Mk III.

[AlanG]

And I do disagree, because (as I mentioned in my earlier response) the $3000 full-frame cameras are not Leica's target. After all, 5D doesn't compete with the 1Ds Mk III.

 

I'd be speculating to know what the target market would be for a non-existent camera, but I suspect if an R10 comes out it will be as expensive as a 1DsIII.

 

6 years ago, the only digital camera that would have interested me would have been a full frame hi res model. A little later, when Kodak announced the DCS14n, I called my dealer and said to get me one as soon as they became available. As time went by, I decided the Canon 1DS would be a better choice and switched from Nikon to Canon. If at that time Leica had an $8,000 full frame 11+ megapixel camera, and a 24 TSE, to go with the 19mm, it too would have been in contention - providing they also had good pro service and support.

 

A little later, I also picked up the 1DII when it came out. Still later, I tried out a 1DsII and passed on it. Then I bought a 5D. I felt the image quality (especially with DXO) was fine for my needs but what I really liked was the smaller size and lighter weight. As it has worked well for me these past 3 years (despite some others who refer to it as junk,) I am mostly looking at that form factor rather than the larger 1DsIII. So I will at least wait for the replacement for the 5D before deciding between the two. Unfortunately for Leica, they are not even giving me a choice.

 

So my point is that I most likely was the target market for the 1D series of cameras, but have determined that the 5D size cameras also suit my needs. I think a lot of other photographers may have come to the same conclusion (including some Leica R users.) And that is why I feel that the D700, A900, and 5D replacement will have to be somewhat of a factor in however Leica plans to position a new DSLR in this marketplace.

 

When deciding on equipment, image quality is an important factor, but it is just one factor. Most of my clients do not make maximum use of the quality I currently provide.

[andybarton]

Do you own any Leica equipment, Alan?

[ptomsu]

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I'd be speculating to know what the target market would be for a non-existent camera, but I suspect if an R10 comes out it will be as expensive as a 1DsIII.

 

6 years ago, the only digital camera that would have interested me would have been a full frame hi res model. A little later, when Kodak announced the DCS14n, I called my dealer and said to get me one as soon as they became available. As time went by, I decided the Canon 1DS would be a better choice and switched from Nikon to Canon. If at that time Leica had an $8,000 full frame 11+ megapixel camera, and a 24 TSE, to go with the 19mm, it too would have been in contention - providing they also had good pro service and support.

 

A little later, I also picked up the 1DII when it came out. Still later, I tried out a 1DsII and passed on it. Then I bought a 5D. I felt the image quality (especially with DXO) was fine for my needs but what I really liked was the smaller size and lighter weight. As it has worked well for me these past 3 years (despite some others who refer to it as junk,) I am mostly looking at that form factor rather than the larger 1DsIII. So I will at least wait for the replacement for the 5D before deciding between the two. Unfortunately for Leica, they are not even giving me a choice.

 

So my point is that I most likely was the target market for the 1D series of cameras, but have determined that the 5D size cameras also suit my needs. I think a lot of other photographers may have come to the same conclusion (including some Leica R users.) And that is why I feel that the D700, A900, and 5D replacement will have to be somewhat of a factor in however Leica plans to position a new DSLR in this marketplace.

 

When deciding on equipment, image quality is an important factor, but it is just one factor. Most of my clients do not make maximum use of the quality I currently provide.

 

You are so right! A camera is only as good as you like to handle and carry it. If it is going to be to heavy, it will stay at home. And then you have theoretically the highest IQ, but no pictures, because no camera with you

 

I like the sizes of the D700 and A900, although the A900 gives double the resolution and the choice of full AF Zeiss glass. Actually I am also looking for the 5D replacement, as some of the high speed C primes are of huge interest for me

[lct]

...have determined that the 5D size cameras also suit my needs. I think a lot of other photographers may have come to the same conclusion (including some Leica R users.)...

Agree. It is not R users fault if Leica goes the MF route and forget its legacy customers. What are they supposed to do with their R lenses and a €10K (or 15K?) MF body that 90% of them won't never dream to buy? Trash them or sell them at a loss? The DMR with R8 or R9 bodies is a (discontinued) big beast that everybody don't like necessarily, specially those who purchased small R4 to R7 bodies. So thanks to Canon and other brands if they allow Leica customers to do what Leica will (probably) refuse to them i.e. using their Leica glass on something digital and something else than a Godzilla camera.

[ptomsu]

I find also the prizes of the new M lenses - 21, 24 and Nocti - just completely above the head of the current M users.

 

And many other M users they will not be able to allocate.

 

Not sure what made then go this way. It is of course technically possible to do lot of things, question is, if it makes sense, especially if you consider prizes and how many of the units you will be able to sell.

 

Either I do not at all understand their business model or they are completely wrong.

[AlanG]

Do you own any Leica equipment, Alan?

 

Yes I do have a little. But I've sold almost everything I had that was Leica once I went digital including my Leica enlarger and projector. I haven't shot a roll of 35mm film in 5 years.

[mgcd]

Yes I do have a little. But I've sold almost everything I had that was Leica once I went digital including my Leica enlarger and projector. I haven't shot a roll of 35mm film in 5 years.

 

Let me rephrase that a little. Did you or do you still own any Leica R equipment?

[mooky]

Yes I do have a little. But I've sold almost everything I had that was Leica once I went digital including my Leica enlarger and projector. I haven't shot a roll of 35mm film in 5 years.

 

So while you really hardly have any Leica equipment and seem to prefer Canons - why do you bother to communicate about your Canons on a Leica site? I mean, it's great you like them and all, but again, how is Canon relevant to Leica if you don't use Leica?

 

Maybe there should be a 'general photography' comment section where non Leica users can espouse the uniqueness of their favorite brand of cameras other than Leica. Or, maybe have the servers just place any comment that says or mentions Canon to it's own separate section..........I'm joking of course (well maybe only half joking)........

[AlanG]

I used to own Leicaflex SL equipment. I also owned SM and M equipment, an enlarger, a projector an Aristophot system, and an Ortholux system. I still own binoculars. One of my close relatives owned two camera stores in Washington DC and I worked there while on school vacation for about 7 years. I have owned and sold a lot of Leica gear over a 40 year time period.

 

I have owned just about every brand, size, and shape camera. Including, Topcon Super D, Pentax, Minolta SR-1, various Nikons, Hasselblads, Rollei twin lens, Rollei 6006, about a dozen Linhofs of various types, Speed Graphics, Cambos, Gandolfi, several Minox, Widelux, Canon RF, Nikon S3 system, Robot Royal, stereo cameras, several Zeiss, and others I can't recall now. Plus I have dozens of misc. cameras in my casual collection. I have never been an especially loyal fan of any brand including Canon (which is simply the most recent system I've been using.) I got rid of most of my film equipment 5 years ago when I went digital, including various Leica items.

 

I really don't know why I bother to disturb you by posting here but it certainly wasn't to build up Canon or to put down Leica gear. As a long time follower of Leica and as an observer of the industry, I do find all of the speculation about the R10 strangely fascinating. Sort of like a multi-year soap opera that is gradually playing out with no clear ending in sight.

 

And I've always been pulling for Leica to somehow get its act together despite what I see as a series of missteps starting from the early 60s when they failed to adequately compete with what Nikon was doing to take over the pro market. This was followed by what struck me as a company that was doing more to target collectors than photographers. So I am waiting along with everyone else to see if Leica even steps up to the plate with a product, let alone if that product is a home run.

 

Re-read my posts and you'll see that all I was trying to say was that if Leica is going to release a new digital SLR, I didn't see why they were keeping that a secret. And I further remarked that there is a lot of competition in the DSLR market now. Whether any individual agrees that this will be true competition for anything that Leica may come out with is up to that person.

 

In my mind the Nikon, Canon and Sony products will be very tough competition even if Leica comes out with the very best quality DSLR camera in the market and even if it somehow has the most features too. This has nothing to do with being a fan, just an observer.

[AlanG]

So while you really hardly have any Leica equipment and seem to prefer Canons - why do you bother to communicate about your Canons on a Leica site? I mean, it's great you like them and all, but again, how is Canon relevant to Leica if you don't use Leica?

 

Someone other than I said that he would like to see a 5D replacement that would accept Leica lenses. Another poster said that he didn't think many DMR users would be interested in the future 5D replacement body. At which point I queried, how can you know that when the camera hasn't even been announced yet? This was in no way support of Canon or knocking Leica.

 

If Leica comes out with a full frame DSLR that produces a significant jump in quality from what I currently use and also makes the lenses that I need, along with pro support, all at a price that I can justify, I'll strongly consider it. I bet a number of other photographers would feel the same way and would give Leica a chance. If Leica can't meet all of those terms, they can only hope that their existing customers are enough to make the effort profitable. What I am trying to do is give an objective view of what Leica needs to do if it wants to appeal to a relatively typical working pro such as I. However, I do not get the feeling that I am their target market anymore. I haven't so much abandoned Leica as Leica has abandoned me and my needs. I still hold out hope that they'll make a new 21st century version of a camera that will be as significant as their rangefinder cameras were to the mid 20th century. Something like the size of a G9 with small interchangeable lenses and a larger sensor would really suit me.

[mooky]

Alan,,,,

 

Thanks for the explanation. Leica has never been one to give up it's secrets - and it continues to madden most everyone.... I really hope that they come out with something that is different enough to separate them from the rest. If I may, I read the early reviews and saw the pictures of the Sony 900a and all it shows me is that anyone can compete in that market and more probably will, which also shows that the market design-wise is ripe for something new and different.

 

Obviously Leica has 'pigeon-holed' themselves long ago by competing (or trying to) in a market that has the mass-marketed cameras winning out. Like you, I've used lots of different brands, but the Leica brand has always been my #1, and always will - it's the way I see. I can't imagine any alternate brand user not pulling for Leica - Maybe Leica can make it with designs and features like all the rest. I hope whatever we see in the next couple weeks will do that for them - though I won't complain if it's different.

[jaapv]

The odds of me going out and buying a used 1.3 crop camera that is several generations old is less than nil. Regardless of whether it is capable of producing great quality.

 

I'm sure you don't mean to imply you are more interested in technology than in the quality of your images.....

[AlanG]

I'm sure you don't mean to imply you are more interested in technology than in the quality of your images.....

 

No it is just that the cropped sensor cameras are not useful with my TSE and PC lenses or extreme wide angle and fisheye. That is the bulk of my work. I sold the 1DII for this reason and the fact that it was only 8 megapixels.

 

When it comes to the quality of my images, there are few that I feel couldn't be improved in one or more ways. But of all those images, in my opinion, few would benefit from improvements that a camera can provide.

 

By the way, here is a sample of one of my stitched images. The original is about 44 megapixels which is comparable in size to the best MF backs. It could have been produced with just about any decent camera. But you can't get an image like this with a single shot MF back and no stitching. It is a very wide shot yet still is rectilinear. I'm going more in this direction for my higher end projects and personal work. That is why slight improvements in camera quality is less important to me. And when I photograph people close-up I already have too much detail. I'm only saying this because I feel that all of the top cameras are getting to the point of diminishing returns. But software and my understanding of techniques have a way to go.

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[andybarton]

Alan

 

I think that you have made your position with regards to Leica perfectly clear.

 

I hope that you are very happy going forwards, with your Canon equipment.

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[rick_dykstra]

Nice work Alan. Nice house! Could you tell a little about the stitching tool and your method? Thanks. I've been helping a friend with some travel shots, stitching with Nikon View. But it leaves blank gaps in the corners, which I then have to fill in manually - tricky given the vignetting that's in those corners with a blue sky.

[rick_dykstra]

On the DMR - I've always been impressed with the shots people have shown but I've not bought one for my own use. Reason - the ones I tried did not have perfect focal plane sensor alignment, which is a real problem when using long lenses. From what I've seen it looks like the DMR is set up so that any required focal plane adjustment can be achieved by using shims (to push the sensor back or push the focussing screen back), but this is only easy if the problem is one of back focussing. It it's front focussing, shimming can't help. Time to remove some metal! The ones I tested were back focussing with my 800mm and so could have been fixed - but then wouldn't have been right for film!

 

I'm hoping that an R10 with a fixed sensor will solve this and provide perfect focus with my long lenses. :-)