lct Posted April 15, 2008 Share #141 Posted April 15, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...The second one is a revised R system: full frame camera, AF lenses... The problem here is competition... Leica cannot go this route either... Not my opinion i must say. People willing to purchase a Leica don't expect the latter to be in the same league as Canikon's. What they want is to use Leica glass like they did with film and/or in a better way than on Canon bodies. Besides, your third route would be too expensive for legacy users and without the latters it would no be a route but a dead end i'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 15, 2008 Posted April 15, 2008 Hi lct, Take a look here Yes or No, Black or White is Leica going to make the R10?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted April 15, 2008 Share #142 Posted April 15, 2008 i think a lot of people misinterpret the gee whiz gadgetry on cameras these days while reducing complexity can be worthwhile, there are basics a camera just has to have Af is something the SL10 needs to have in order to sell, even if people end up not using it. The vast majority of potential buyers have been conditioned by the despicable viewfinders of AF cameras to believe that manual focus is difficult or unreliable. It's like the 1970s when Leica was selling the SL2 while the rest of the industry had adopted auto exposure. In order to sell any camera bodies, Leica had to adopt AE too. Never mind that manual exposure is more precise, a camera had to have AE or it would not sell. I started using an AE camera in the 1980s and I find that I could do entirely without it. Same for AF, but there are not enough people who trust their own skills to make a completely manual digital camera economically viable. For me I'd like to see in the SL10: a Leicaflex SL-sized body a Leicaflex SL viewfinder a Leicaflex SL2 meter, updated with modern meter cells and battery full-frame or larger sensor, with dust removal and in-camera vibration control DMR or better image quality, 16-bit pixels are a given (none of that 12- or 14-bit compromise). Whatever features the camera has Leica can't sell anything if they don't have a camera on the market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 15, 2008 Share #143 Posted April 15, 2008 There is another possibility: to produce and sell lenses for F, K mounts... like Zeiss (route 4). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 15, 2008 Share #144 Posted April 15, 2008 Not my opinion i must say. People willing to purchase a Leica don't expect the latter to be in the same league as Canikon's. What they want is to use Leica glass like they did with film and/or in a better way than on Canon bodies. Besides, your third route would be too expensive for legacy users and without the latters it would no be a route but a dead end i'm afraid. Are there many legacy users? Routes 1, 2 and 3 may offer compatibility for R glass (route 4 doesn't). That is not the problem. The problem is how to get new customers on board, and how to make a profit being competitive where you can be competititve. It isn't an easy marketing problem (position, pricing, type of product and market target) at all, and I haven't a solution. They know better. The technical problems (design, manufacture) are another story, and they aren't easy to solve either. The M line isn't a problem at all. they only need to improve the basic design, when possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 15, 2008 Share #145 Posted April 15, 2008 Ruben, we are all more or less old new customers aren't we New customers will come for the same reasons as we did ourselves: the Leica Glass. Again, since R cameras exist they have always been behind Canikons as far as technique and ahead as fas as IQ. Nothing new under the sun IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted April 15, 2008 Share #146 Posted April 15, 2008 RAgain, since R cameras exist they have always been behind Canikons as far as technique Not at the time of the R3/R4 at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 15, 2008 Share #147 Posted April 15, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) We cannot translate past experience to the present. The time for being ahead in terms of IQ has passed (except for route 3). In 2004 it was possible, because only Canon had 35mm full frame cameras. IQ, from a competitive point of view, is a relative concept. Leica, due to economies of scale limitations and manufacture costs, cannot be competitive in prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 15, 2008 Share #148 Posted April 15, 2008 Not at the time of the R3/R4 at least. R3/R4 are Minolta copies. And the original Minolta XE-7, XD-7 or XD-11 were far from being the first tier products at their time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 15, 2008 Share #149 Posted April 15, 2008 Perhaps we shall start a poll? ... just for fun purpose. Choice A: I will take whatever Leica makes, be it AF, Medium Format wanna be, or 35mm FF, or 4/3, whatever. The red dot makes it a no brainer. Choice B: Nah, it must stay with manual focus, and R mount. Choice C: Nah, forget it, Hans. Get out of the camera business and build lenses for EOS and F mounts. Choice D: Just license a body from Canon, Nikon or Panasonic and charge 2x or 3x price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 15, 2008 Share #150 Posted April 15, 2008 ...Again, since R cameras exist they have always been behind Canikons as far as technique... Not at the time of the R3/R4 at least. Hehe! Pascal much as i like my little R4s i'm an old nikonian as well and the Nikon F2 was miles ahead the R3 with its interchangeable finders, 1/2000s and the Phototomic silicium meter. As for the F3 remember it was autofocus when the R4 was... just a R4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjöbjörn Posted April 15, 2008 Share #151 Posted April 15, 2008 R3/R4 are Minolta copies. And the original Minolta XE-7, XD-7 or XD-11 were far from being the first tier products at their time. To the Germans: Besserwissermodus ( I do not know the English word for this) an: Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Minolta XD 7 was the first to offer both automatic shutter and aperture (today A and S mode), so in that regard they were first. Again German: Besserwissermodus aus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted April 15, 2008 Share #152 Posted April 15, 2008 Hehe! Pascal much as i like my little R4s i'm an old nikonian as well and the Nikon F2 was miles ahead the R3 with its interchangeable finders, 1/2000s and the Phototomic silicium meter. As for the F3 remember it was autofocus when the R4 was... just a R4 Yes and the Leica were the only one to offer the choice between spot and center-weighted metering. The R4 was also amongst the first ones to offer different automatic mode... The winder was more silent than the competitors and the mirror was smoother, at least on its way up. P.S: I own these cameras, including the F2, F3, Canon F1 & F1N... And BTW, only a special version of the F3 was AF with only 2 lenses... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 15, 2008 Share #153 Posted April 15, 2008 ...I thought the Minolta XD 7 was the first to offer both automatic shutter and aperture (today A and S mode)... I don't remember but it's been launched in 1977 hence after the R3 according to Minolta XD-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 15, 2008 Share #154 Posted April 15, 2008 ...I own these cameras, including the F2, F3, Canon F1 & F1N.. And BTW, only a special version of the F3 was AF with only 2 lenses... You beat me to this Pascal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 15, 2008 Share #155 Posted April 15, 2008 Thanks a lot for the corrections, folks. So, perhaps Leica should work with Minolta again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 15, 2008 Share #156 Posted April 15, 2008 So, perhaps Leica should work with Minolta again? I can only see one problem with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicamr Posted April 15, 2008 Share #157 Posted April 15, 2008 Thanks a lot for the corrections, folks. So, perhaps Leica should work with Minolta again? Maybe that should be Sony! The only advantage of a Nikon or Canon over Leica R systems is auto focus and high speed TTL flash metering. But some would never use auto focus or flash anyway. With that in mind I guess that the R system isn't behind the far east competition. I do know that the matrix metering beats the hell out of my Nikon D200 matrix metering. The Leica only has six or seven metering area's, the Nikon has many more (can't remember the figure). But the algorithm in the Leica is highly clever, unlike that the Nikon. If you read the marketing blurb on the Nikon metering you would think rocket science had been applied, but not so. If the R10 is a digital R8/9 with auto focus, high speed TTL flash, and let's push the boat out and included dust / dirt sealing (never high on my list) then it will beat Nikon and Canon top end equipment easily. My 29 year old R3 still produces beautiful colour transparencies. I would rate the TTL metering of this camera more highly than the matrix metering of the D200, honest. Errors in the D200 are corrected in Photoshop. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 15, 2008 Share #158 Posted April 15, 2008 It is a question of price/performance. Leaving aside other features, if we focus on image quality, Leica must offer better IQ at a similar price. It isn't easy, just because Leica depends on partners for all the electronic components, specially the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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