Yes or No, Black or White is Leica going to make the R10?

[rosuna]

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I think Leica's catalogue will be based on a small, manual, classic-retro concept, with the M line of cameras and lenses; and a modern, medium format-like, AF system, with the sucessor of the R cameras. Leica will avoid the direct competition of Canon/Nikon/Sony cameras by placing its product in a different segment. This is a smart strategy, in my opinion. The M cameras are a "different" thing, so they will not compete against full frame auto-DSRLs. The R sucessor system will try to be in the same position.

[sdai]

I can not speak for the others but, I will NOT consider such a "in-the-middle-of-nowhere" new system.

 

It sounds pretty stupid to me, and makes absolutely no sense in any regards.

 

So it's not exactly medium format, not exactly 35mm ... not decent classic manual focus, and can not match the performance of Japanese auto focus.

 

Thank you!

 

If I want absolute image quality such as medium format and do not care how much to spend, I will choose Hasselblad.

 

If I'm looking at auto focus and high ISO performance, there are no better choices than Canon and Nikon.

 

Whenever I feel nostalgic about manual focus, I can use my old cameras!

[johnwolf]

If I'm looking at auto focus and high ISO performance, there are no better choices than Canon and Nikon.

 

Which is, by the way, what most consumers want.

 

If Leica is serious about broadening their market, selling more lenses, and building an upgrade path, then wouldn't a mid-tier body makes more sense? A 5D competitor with R glass would be attractive to many buyers.

 

John

[jaapv]

Not at R-glass prices. They would have to develop Summarit-like lenses as well.

[sdai]

If Leica is serious about broadening their market, selling more lenses, and building an upgrade path, then wouldn't a mid-tier body makes more sense? A 5D competitor with R glass would be attractive to many buyers.

 

That would be cool but in reality, it's very unlikely going to happen because there's no chance Leica could approach the cost/performance ratio the typical 5D customers will demand. Plus, Leica's manufacturing and support capacity is far from big enough to support a product for the mass market.

 

What I don't like to see is ... Leica seems to have forgotten why people are looking at their products, and it's primarily because people can find something which can't be found from other camera companies.

 

The answer is quite clear and the solution would be extremely simple:

 

Just do a 35mm full frame DSLR based on the R9 body (or the SL2 ... for Doug), perhaps with a few useful additional features sets, such as focus confirmation, etc.

 

That's it.

 

Frankly, I'm not panicking because I have about 20k, 30k sunken into the Leica R gears ... the stuff I already have will continue to be useful, more or less, in one way or another.

 

Sometimes I even want to laugh when I think of a person who has bought almost every single R camera, lens Leica has introduced since the SL.

 

Will I spend another 20k, 30k on the new system just because it's NEW?

 

You can get my answer now ... NO WAY.

[rosuna]

 

Who will write the firmware and post processing software for them? I'm not holding my breath.

 

They don't need specific processing software. Aperture and Lightroom, and Capture One, support DNG files. A mass-license for Capture One (basic edition) is cheap. The firmware is a different thing, but I suppose Leica has developed a software/digital internal division, and they already work in the M8 firmware updates.

[lct]

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Leica is not alone as a fine lens maker. Zeiss lenses sound great as well. I'll use them with my Nikon stuff or the next FF Sony perhaps if my R lenses cannot be used in AE mode at least with the R10. But no stop down metering please, thanks no thanks.

[jrc]

I think there will be an R10 and that there's a good chance that it will flop -- that it just won't be innovative enough to pull people in.

 

If Leica really wanted to do something startling, it would put a larger-than-35 sensor in what amounts to a 35 body, with two shooting modes, like the Nikon D3. (The D3 can use DX -- crop 1.5s lenses -- when shooting in the DX mode.) Leica could offer a larger-than-35 sensor and a new line of lenses, modest in range, at first, to offer full function with the larger sensor. They could also offer crop-mode function with it's older lenses, that would be equivalent to FF mode on other cameras. This would encourage sales not only of camera bodies, but a new range of lenses, while still providing FF-equivalent function for current customers. It would also position the Leica as an intermediate camera between 35 and medium-format, and, if sold at a near-35 price ($9,999), it would be quite attractive.

 

However, if this were going to happen any time in the next couple of years, there would be rumors, because people would be excited and couldn't be fully shut up. The lack of rumors, this close to Photokina, suggests to me that the camera won't be that exciting. Probably a plain-vanilla FF ~18mp CCD sensor that works with all the old lenses, and outside the world of Leica fans, will elicit nothing but yawns.

 

JC

[lct]

Give me the plain vanilla please!

[sdai]

I am not even asking for plain vanilla ... tap water will relieve my thirst.

[sdai]

They don't need specific processing software. Aperture and Lightroom, and Capture One, support DNG files. A mass-license for Capture One (basic edition) is cheap. The firmware is a different thing, but I suppose Leica has developed a software/digital internal division, and they already work in the M8 firmware updates.

 

All high end camera companies have their own softwares to fully explore the potential of their RAW files ... not to mention the proprietary features which can only be properly handled by their own software such as Hasselblad's digital APO correction.

 

Generic software such as Aperture, Lightroom are known to be best for nothing ... Canon users' best bet is still their own DPP, Nikon users will most likely settle on their own Capture NX.

[AlanG]

All high end camera companies have their own softwares to fully explore the potential of their RAW files ... not to mention the proprietary features which can only be properly handled by their own software such as Hasselblad's digital APO correction.

 

Generic software such as Aperture, Lightroom are known to be best for nothing ... Canon users' best bet is still their own DPP, Nikon users will most likely settle on their own Capture NX.

 

I disagree. I have been shooting with Canons for 5 years and never liked DPP very much. I first used Capture One and now use DXO. DPP can't touch the results I get with DXO. C1 or DXO for an R10 would work fine.

[sdai]

I disagree. I have been shooting with Canons for 5 years and never liked DPP very much. I first used Capture One and now use DXO. DPP can't touch the results I get with DXO. C1 or DXO for an R10 would work fine.

 

That's ok, Alan ... as long as you agree that Aperture/Lightroom are not the best.

[AlanG]

That's ok, Alan ... as long as you agree that Aperture/Lightroom are not the best.

 

I never tried Aperture so I can't comment on it. I was teaching a course at CDIA - Boston University (in DC) last week and they require the students to use Lightroom so I learned it. While it doesn't have the lens and perspective correction features of DXO, it has better color and exposure controls (highlight recovery and fill light) than C-1 Pro or DPP. I thought it was quite good but I never did any comparison with DXO to see how it handles detail.

 

As for the R10. I think that going MF or semi-MF is a waste as the top 35mm FF cameras do such a good job already. There won't be enough market for Leica to justify the effort. As for competing with the best from Canon, Nikon, and now Sony (with its 24 megapixel camera) that will be tough. Especially for a company with modest resources

 

My best hope is that they team up with Panasonic or maybe Olympus for a full frame 35mm using the new 24 megapixel Sony sensor and new lenses. (Unless there is another sensor out there.) This doesn't seem too farfetched as they already teamed up for 4/3rds and all of these players probably want to stay in the game. Maybe this will be the new 4/3rds as that format surely is pushing its limits. I guess the old R lenses could work via adapters, but a new lens line will be necessary. I can't see any other way to have enough market penetration to justify the effort.

[lct]

In other words it is normal to change the R-mount... I still can't understand why. Why didn't Nikon do the same as well?

[AlanG]

In other words it is normal to change the R-mount... I still can't understand why. Why didn't Nikon do the same as well?

 

I don't know if they'd have to completely change the mount. Just add AF electrical contact capability to it. I guess I shouldn't have said that it could use R lenses via an adapter.

 

However, I like the fact that Canons have a thin body (short flange to sensor distance) which allows other brands of lenses to be used via an adapter. This route could work for Leica too. And the adapter might be a simple way to add focus confirmation to R lenses if they won't otherwise confirm without a chip. If the sensor is stabilized like Sony's then there will be no need for stabilized lenses and that will extend the usefulness of the R lenses too.

 

By the way, I had a Rollei 6006 system. The first lenses had manual and auto exposure shutter priority and didn't convey f stops to the viewfinder. Then they came out with the 6008 series along with PQ and PQs lenses that offered aperture priority and also displayed f stops in the viewfinder. And finally they came out with 6008AF and AF lenses. These lenses also work on the new Rollei, Sinar, and Leaf models. As far as I know, all of the various lenses are compatible with all of the cameras - but of course some functions will vary depending on the lens series/body combination. I don't see why Leica can't do the same. As you pointed out, Nikon kept things fairly compatible through a number of changes over the years. (Some new lenses won't work on old bodies though. And many of the old lenses won't meter on some new bodies.)

[paulmoore]

I have no idea what they will put out there, but this is what I would do if I was the leica ceo with carte blanche: The M is the small camera..the r is the big camera..make the new r with a larger than 35mm FF sensor, let go of the 6:9 proportion for 6:8., new FAST AF lenses,..adapter for old r mount with the ability to shoot traditional 35 FF with those rom lenses with focus confirmation... 21 mp.. give or take 3., this is all that is needed for most professional work. I would bet that a 21 mp leica r would provide enough quality for 80 % of all professional work. Today's high mp medium format cameras are yesterday's large format cameras, there is a digital need today for yesterday's medium and small format film cameras, a non canon/nikon solution.

The problem with my r9dmr hybrid is not its weight or shape but it's format and resolution, let form follow function, create a new digital slr with a sensor that utilizes the leitz optics and allows for more sensible commercial cropping.. in other words a 6:8 sensor will maximize the sensor's size and throw away less.. there is no such thing as ff in my commercial world.. that was the first myth that was broken for me when I started shooting professionally, your precious full frame photos will be cropped.. not just for the design whim of art directors .. but to allow for practical things like copy placement, bleed, trim and gutters..or that spread-page magazine ad has to run in 8 different sized magazines. I as a r user/owner am more attached to the optics than to the format.

A 35mm full frame sensor would be better than my dmr, sure, but it would be a waste of pixels and R&D euros to not push the envelope and create an exciting new camera system, a professional digital system for the coming years. Make it for the professional market and the aspirating consumers will follow.

Well r team, you have your orders, good luck and engage!

[Riley]

since Leica dont make sensors, theyre sorta stuck with what 2nd string manufacturers offer

[paulmoore]

second string implies second rate.. if you mean someone has to supply or build them a sensor, yes I think we know that..

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[Riley]

second string implies second rate.. if you mean someone has to supply or build them a sensor, yes I think we know that..

 

it might to you, but its purely out of ignorance

industry has with it second and third string suppliers, its a generic term that comes from the auto industry whom are mostly car assemblers. Likewise electronic components and devices are sought from second and third string suppliers and this would be almost universal in camera production.