Question RAW M8

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

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Good evening,

 

I have recently bought an M8 and 28mm and am trying it out, testing different results and so on. I have also read quite a lot on digital processing the difference between RAW and Jpeg etc. etc. (This is my first digital camera!)

 

I have a question though on this subject; When shooting in RAW I understand that basically some otherwise important settings settings can be altered in the post processing process. I tried this and this goes well, I can clearly see the advantages here. Does this mean that these settings can be changed without any loss of quality, or does a perfect "start" shot in which little needs to be changed turn out a better quality?

 

For instance Auto White Balance, don't I really need to look after the setting becasue I can change it later anyway... or does, by changing this in a RAW converter have some loss of quality. (I hope you know what I mean)

 

I am up until now very pleased with the results but would like to maintain the best possible image quality

 

I use Adobe Lightroom for my RAW conversion.

 

I use this on Apple, I will also start trying Aperture 2.0 ... before doing so, is it worth looking at, or is one better than the other

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[Paul_S]

For someone who is new to digital imaging I think you already have a good understanding of concepts like raw.

 

The white balance setting is a typical example of the flexibility of raw. In the raw file, the WB is stored as metadata (next to the actual raw data) and not yet processed. You can change that WB value (with software) afterwards without scarifying any image quality. Many raw shooters don't mind the WB setting in the camera for that reason.

 

The raw data (as opposed to the metadata in the raw file) is basically determined by exposure in the first place and ISO setting of the camera. Contrast, sharpening, saturation and WB are all processed afterwards in your raw software during conversion or processing into a JPEG or TIFF (RGB) file.

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

Thanks Paul,

 

does the on camera white balance setting on the M8 influence the raw image at all?

[stunsworth]

Ridder, it just provides the initial value for the RAW converter. As far as I'm aware it has no influence on the captured data other than 'tagging' it for the RAW converter.

 

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[RobertW]

Yes, the image will reflect the white balance setting you select under RAW.

Try experimenting by "manually" adjusting the Kelvin setting to 2000 and then take the same picture using a setting of 4000. You'll notice the difference on the camera's LCD and before conversion from RAW to TIFF or JPEG. The further you are from the "most pleasing" white balance setting, th emore you will need to adjust the WB on conversion.

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

Thank you all. I will spend tomorrow practicing WB and it's adjustments/effects, I understand the principle though, it's only that I find post process adjusted white balance often "nicer" on my screen. Even shots I take using a grey card which should get an accurate white balance value (yes?). But I guess it all has to do with personal preference as well, and a screen is only a screen even if calibrated. I will hopefully be receiving my new photoprinter next week, I can then extend my tests to actual printed matter.

This is what I'm use too having done 20 years of analog B&W only. I guess I'm trying to understand "colour" in general and what it can do for me as a (newbie/junior) colour photographer. I actually find the Exif settings very usefull for this, I use to note everything down in a little black book so I could revert to that before developing and printing the film... .... with exif information you can actually see .... what am I talking about you guys all know this, you can see that Ime actually quite enthiousiatic about digital in general.

Up until now I have been ignorant with respect to digital photography.... anyway thanks for all the info, I will probably have more questions along the way, and definately when starting to print my images

[stunsworth]

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Ridder, yes the Exif data can be very useful.

 

If you're primarily a b&w photographer, don't discount b&w images from the M8. If you shoot RAW there are lots of ways of producing b&w images from the colour images that the RAW processing produces. I'd say 80% of the photographs I take with the M8 end up as b&w.

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks Paul,

 

does the on camera white balance setting on the M8 influence the raw image at all?

 

The main concept is that NO INFORMATION IS LOST, i.e., you have the same details in shadows and highlights, so, as you have well understood, correction in LR is always possible and you haven't any "loss". Before the last firmware release I didn't use AWB on M8, so sometimes happened that I forgot, for instance, that had used the camera in interiors with "tungsten", left it so, and then took some pic in the sun... not nice to see, but perfectly corrected in LR...

 

And... welcome to the forum !!! For me too M8 was my first (and only) digital...

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

Ridder, yes the Exif data can be very useful.

 

If you're primarily a b&w photographer, don't discount b&w images from the M8. If you shoot RAW there are lots of ways of producing b&w images from the colour images that the RAW processing produces. I'd say 80% of the photographs I take with the M8 end up as b&w.

 

.... I will of course try B&W at some stage, but I bought the M8 specifically for colour, or perhaps even "coloured" photography. B&W I will still do with film and wet photogrpahy I like to think that over the years I have mastered this technique quite well.

 

But having said that I will probably end up doing everything with the M8 and start using my darkroom as a Beer storage or something similar, for digital processing is much more "fun/Zen" as I thought it would be. I still have some trouble understanding colours and the possibilities threof for I have no intentions of producing 1:1 colour images if you know what I mean and having used postprocessing techniques and seeing the possibilities it offers I want to be able to understand the possibilities of the outcome before I actually shoot the image... all part of the fun.

 

Anyway I will do B&W, certainly but will be greatly dissapointed if the images turn out fully to my satisfaction, which they probably will knowing the possibilities of digital photography. This will mean that due to my complete ignorance I have been wasting my time for years now, not to talk about money and flexibility.

 

I just came in from an early morning photoshoot and I shot 156 raw images, with film I might of shot 12 (120 film) and been very carefull of how I "spent" these 12 images. Having the possibility to just click away is great, in the past 2 weeks shot that I would of never of taken with film turned out very well .... so see ! :-)

[spylaw4]

........<snip>

 

I use Adobe Lightroom for my RAW conversion.

 

I use this on Apple, I will also start trying Aperture 2.0 ... before doing so, is it worth looking at, or is one better than the other

 

You can download a 30-day trial of Aperture - I'm a few days into that. I use LR primarily.

Aperture is different and personally I don't think it is quite as intuitive as LR, but I am quite pleased with the way it handles some images. So far on balance I won't be purchasing it. YMMV.

 

Oh - and welcome!

[Perspectics]

Ridder, one more on Meta-data in RAW images: It even contains an estimated aperture value and the temperature. If you look for "cornerfix" you`ll find freeware software that - as a side effect - displays those infos. Regarding temperature nobody is sure if its the M8 on-chip temperature or something useful, though... Cheers, Claus

[Dantist]

Hi Ridder,

Welcome to the forum.

Won't say so much since you've already got many positive answers to your questions.

I shall only add that I've tried until now Lightroom and CameraRaw from Adobe, Aperture (trial version), and Capture One (both Pro, Le, 4) since I got my M8 on the 30th of last september.

Wether I had two unrespectful shutdowns of the last raw converter delivered free with the camera (final upgrade to C1 4), I must admitt that it is the most enjoyable and fine program, imho. Many have said that it has the most efficient and respectful algorthyms, I am one of them to say so. Some find it not ergonomic, I needed time to know how to process precisely.

I always use AWB on the M8, and C1 4 provides me the best results I can expect in very difficult conditions. I am afraid that using fixed corrections for WB may reduce the tone balance, and, due to what I noticed, push up the noise in rather dark zones.

In fact, I have always been absolutely happy with the AWB, especially since the last upgrade of the firmware (1.2.0.1). If I wish to desaturate the views, then the tones are tremendous (this is not a emphatic word to say), reminding the high quality of old Leica prints.

Anyway, find your own tip of the trick. You may get boared to estimate the light conditions to find the acurate fix of the camera, and may be, you will finish to let the camera choose the white balance automatically

Cheers,

Michel

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

"I am afraid that using fixed corrections for WB may reduce the tone balance, and, due to what I noticed, push up the noise in rather dark zones"

 

Hi Michel, do you mean using fixed corrections out of the camera or during the Post Proces part? Probably you mean in camera corrections since you use AWB most of the time.

 

I think that using exact in camera corrections (with grey/white card) produces the best "natural" image, with a minimum of noise in dark area's and a nice tonal range, in other words if looking for the best possible 1:1 result I would go for this setup. But I am looking for a pre-shot to post processing workflow in which I can define the actual output, for I might not always want a perfect exposure (quite contracdictory to using an M8, I understand) but I want to perhaps "artistically/creatively" influence the outcome starting with the camera settings.

 

I hope its at least a bit clear, I have difficulties explaining exactly what I'm looking for ....

[jaapv]

Just to make things clear. RAW data are not inluenced by AWB. Those are corrections made after the exposure.Whether these are made by the camera or later in RAW conversion is not relevant and won't change the raw date as such.

[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

Just to make things clear. RAW data are not inluenced by AWB. Those are corrections made after the exposure.Whether these are made by the camera or later in RAW conversion is not relevant and won't change the raw date as such.

 

This implies that one is able to shoot anything at any WB value when shooting RAW for post processing will be able to solve this without any loss of quality?

[stunsworth]

Yes

[Perspectics]

The DNG contains a little JPG thumbnail which is displayed when you press the "Play" button on your M8. This JPG thumbnail is developed according to the AWB setting. Other than that its just a number in the Metadata and is typically used as default setting for AWB in developing programs. Lets assume you want to shoot a panorama, then you`d want to not use AWB, except your desire is to correct the values later for each single shot when developing...

[garyvot]

Hi Ridder... welcome.

 

What is not obvious at first is that any digital camera is a both a capture and a processing device. Shooting RAW allows you to bypass the in-camera processing. The RAW file contains the original sensor data, plus any relevant camera settings (like WB, sharpening, contrast, etc.). But these settings are just "hints" and do not affect the RAW data. Thus, most can be changed after the fact.

 

You can choose different RAW processing software programs depending on your needs, though for Leica the choices are more limited than for Canon or Nikon. (Both Canon and Nikon offer their own software that allows you to exactly duplicate the "look" of the in-camera processing should you desire to do so, whereas for Leica you must rely on Adobe or Phase One.)

 

Processing to a finished JPEG in the camera may also cause data loss, as a "tone curve" is applied to the original data that can "clip" whites or blacks (e.g., throw away data). Since this process can never be undone, even if you need JPEGs immediately it is wise to choose a RAW+JPEG capture setting so that you have the DNG file for future use.

 

Hope this helps.

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[Guest Ridder Cornelius]

It has all become very clear to me now, thanks everybody..... (and what a great file format that is, this RAW)

[vanhulsenbeek]

..... (and what a great file format that is, this RAW)

 

And if you really wish to see what is all in there (including the number of shots -'actuations'- been made with you camera; look at the very end) go here. Freeware, and also in English.

 

PhotoME - Exif, IPTC & ICC Metadata Editor (Windows only )