Guest stnami Posted February 23, 2008 Share #241 Posted February 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I swear I saw a dinosaur serve behind the counter there ..... :D Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46044-steven-klee-gone/?do=findComment&comment=490797'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 23, 2008 Posted February 23, 2008 Hi Guest stnami, Take a look here Steven K.Lee gone. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
carstenw Posted February 23, 2008 Share #242 Posted February 23, 2008 My guess is that this has a lot to do with the fate of M, I personally think the perpetual M8 upgrade program is a weird one, speaking in other words, it implies that there will no further significant development in the M system. Yes, the choice of "perpetual" was an odd one, to be sure. It terminates the idea of the very lucrative new model releases. I can understand that they will upgrade it for a while, but forever is too large a promise, one which can clearly not be kept under all circumstances. If at one day Leica declares the death of M ... let's not be surprised. The end of M means the end of Leica as we know it. The R line, as good as it is, was never the earner that the M line is, to my knowledge. Surprisingly, the D-Lux 3 has apparently been a continued high seller, and is responsible for a significant chunk of the income. May it live long, and show the way for a new low-end strategy for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 23, 2008 Share #243 Posted February 23, 2008 I swear I saw a dinosaur serve behind the counter there ..... :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 23, 2008 Share #244 Posted February 23, 2008 Let me make if clear: if the M8 and current M glass are indicative of the standards of German engineering, I'd rather buy a Rover... *Ouch* How about an MG? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted February 23, 2008 Share #245 Posted February 23, 2008 That is a good point about brandname ownership. I never thought it that big a deal... Those who have been to Leica Camera Berlin ...know what a sharp design it has... Leica Camera Berlin is a really competent store with friendly people... Carsten, did you see the photography art project/ installation? "... http://www.LEICA-CAMERA-BERLIN.COM presented last year a photography art project parallel to the MagnumPhotos show at the Camerawerk Gallery and the Berlinale Film Festival (documentary films 'Magnum in Motion')..." Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 23, 2008 Share #246 Posted February 23, 2008 Let me make if clear: if the M8 and current M glass are indicative of the standards of German engineering, I'd rather buy a Rover... Well, I suppose that might be the way it looks but I'm an engineer and have huge respect for the quality of German engineering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 23, 2008 Share #247 Posted February 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Carsten, did you see the photography art project/ installation? "... MEISTER CAMERA Berlin: Home presented last year a photography art project parallel to the MagnumPhotos show at the Camerawerk Gallery and the Berlinale Film Festival (documentary films 'Magnum in Motion')..." Axel Axel Sanders I was there very often, so I guess I did. IIRC, the project was just a single photo, printed over and over again, and displayed in the displays. It was of a bike courier in motion, and showed plenty of IR... It was not really my cup of tea, to be honest, but the guy who did it was interesting. FWIW, the repeated print also took the manager of the store by surprise. He had been told to expect something much more varied, including drawings and different photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 23, 2008 Share #248 Posted February 23, 2008 Let me make if clear: if the M8 and current M glass are indicative of the standards of German engineering, I'd rather buy a Rover... Well, there is a difference between the engineering and the adjustment. The problems have been almost exclusively with the QC in the assembly and adjustment procedure, not with the engineering, apart from the IR problem. The engineering of the camera still exceeds that of most cameras on the market, and the engineering of the lenses possibly exceeds *all* other lenses on the market, possibly with a very few exceptions, like the Rollei lenses and so on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennersten Posted February 23, 2008 Share #249 Posted February 23, 2008 The Supervisory Board of Leica Camera AG today removed Steven K. Lee as member and Chairman of the Board of Management of Leica Camera AG with immediate effect. As other have said, this is a unusuallly HARD announcement... something strange I think has happened... even if there would has been a management "war" between Lee and Kaufman, I would have rather expected some different-style announcement like "..has accepted the immediate resignement of Mr. Lee..." But REMOVE is a harsh word in management... pity I can't read German... I suppose in the german forum some "inside-or-so" gossip will sprout out on this story... Based on past stories of similar abrupt changeovers, it comes to my mind when Carly FIorina was forced to abandon HP... she succeded into her hard goal to buy Compaq and merge it in HP, but the way she did it costed her her job... Mr. Lee succeded in making and marketing a real digital Leica... and maybe this costed him his job... I don't know about German business culture but if Leica would have been located in Sweden this would had meant: * Mr Lee deliberatly worked against the decisions of the board. * Mr Lee or somebody close have done something illegal or shady business. * Mr Lee had made big errors in the financial part of leading the company(not sanctioned with the board). * Mr Lee had mislead the board about the financial status of the company. I mean, it must happened something far more urgent and critical than the board just being critical to Mr Lees strategy, or they would had got rid of him in a "softer" way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted February 23, 2008 Share #250 Posted February 23, 2008 *Ouch* How about an MG? Carsten, you torturer! t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted February 23, 2008 Share #251 Posted February 23, 2008 Well, I suppose that might be the way it looks but I'm an engineer and have huge respect for the quality of German engineering. I have no doubt that German engineering at its finest is great, world class, astonishing. That's why my post stated: 'if the M8 and current M glass are indicative of the standards of German engineering, I'd rather buy a Rover...' They key word there was the 'if'. It is simply a fact that my main M8 has been back three times in a year and I have had to exchange and fix plenty of glass. The standards of execution are not up to scratch, however clever the blueprints - and frankly the blueprints aren't exactly perfect... t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 23, 2008 Share #252 Posted February 23, 2008 Tim, I think it boils down to the design of the focussing mechanism in the M8 which is stretched to breaking point. What might have been fine on an M3 and 5cm f3.5 Elmar no longer cuts the mustard with modern fast high resolution lenses and the high definition of the M8. Leica was on its knees financially for much of the M8 development period and the best they could do was carry over the M7 rangefinder with minimum changes; even that has to be built and adjust to a higher standard in the M8 and it's not up to it. For all the wonderful glass, the quality is broken if you cannot focus accurately which is why Leica need to move on from this classic but now inadequate design. It's the weakest link in a chain of otherwise fine engineering. Leica need to reinvent the M focussing for the modern age so that we can get the best out of the lenses without having to have them micro re-adjusted as a matter of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted February 23, 2008 Share #253 Posted February 23, 2008 Tim, I think it boils down to the design of the focussing mechanism in the M8 which is stretched to breaking point. What might have been fine on an M3 and 5cm f3.5 Elmar no longer cuts the mustard with modern fast high resolution lenses and the high definition of the M8. Leica was on its knees financially for much of the M8 development period and the best they could do was carry over the M7 rangefinder with minimum changes; even that has to be built and adjust to a higher standard in the M8 and it's not up to it. For all the wonderful glass, the quality is broken if you cannot focus accurately which is why Leica need to move on from this classic but now inadequate design. It's the weakest link in a chain of otherwise fine engineering. Leica need to reinvent the M focussing for the modern age so that we can get the best out of the lenses without having to have them micro re-adjusted as a matter of course. That's the clearest statement of it I've had - and I agree that it's the weak links in the chain, not the general standard of engineering, that compromises the whole. But compromised it is. However, I still use it... and though I will soon by selling one of my bodies and some of my less-used glass, along with my 5d, in order to purchase a 1Ds III, I can't say I look forward to using it! t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted February 23, 2008 Share #254 Posted February 23, 2008 Leica need to reinvent the M focussing for the modern age so that we can get the best out of the lenses without having to have them micro re-adjusted as a matter of course. I agree that the tollerences are tighter with the digital and fast glass, but the simple solution in addition to tighter quality control would be to offer a higher magnification finder for the M8 when using 35mm and longer lenses. Much like the HM versions of the M6 and M7. In my experience with the Noctilux, the M3 was the easiest for focusing, followed by the M7/M6 .85, next came the .72 M6 and the worst finder for focusing it is the M8. I even use the magnifier on the M8, but I find that in difficult light the extra elements in the magnifier reduces the contrast of the image. My basketball shots were an example. I found once I took the magnifier off the M8 was easier to focus shooting up into the arena lighting. I guess what I am saying is we need a HM M8 for people with the 35mm Summiluxes to 90mm Summicrons. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 23, 2008 Share #255 Posted February 23, 2008 Tim, I think it boils down to the design of the focussing mechanism in the M8 which is stretched to breaking point. What might have been fine on an M3 and 5cm f3.5 Elmar no longer cuts the mustard with modern fast high resolution lenses and the high definition of the M8. Leica was on its knees financially for much of the M8 development period and the best they could do was carry over the M7 rangefinder with minimum changes; even that has to be built and adjust to a higher standard in the M8 and it's not up to it. For all the wonderful glass, the quality is broken if you cannot focus accurately which is why Leica need to move on from this classic but now inadequate design. It's the weakest link in a chain of otherwise fine engineering. Leica need to reinvent the M focussing for the modern age so that we can get the best out of the lenses without having to have them micro re-adjusted as a matter of course. Exactly right. What's needed is a "non-reflex" M mount camera, rather than a rangefinder camera. Subtle but significant difference. What's also needed are new wide-angle lenses, still M-mount, but designed telecentric so that they will work on an FF camera without excessive vignetting. In my not-so-humble opinion anyway! Interesting to note that the rumor of the Nikon S "rangefinder" point in exactly those directions. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 23, 2008 Share #256 Posted February 23, 2008 It's a gift for my son, if you must know. Not everyone wants or needs a £3000 camera, and I do find it slightly irritating that you should question my intelligence for doing so. It would be very interesting to know how much Leica earn through their relationship with Panasonic. I'm reading my way through this thread - news to me, I've not logged in for a couple of days - but had to respond to some of the points already made. The Leica/Panasonics are good cameras. I also just bought one of the C Lux variants s/h off e bay and already own an LC5/D1 Wind the clock back a couple of years when everyone was waiting for news of Leica going bust and I recall reading that sales of the digicams had basically kept them afloat though those turbulent times. Leica may not exist today if it hadn't have been for products like the D1, D2, CLux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 23, 2008 Share #257 Posted February 23, 2008 They were not all bad. I have had two - a Digilux 1 - dreadful but luckily a kind thief removed it from me after just one and a half months. Digilux 2 pretty good apart from dying twice in the first year and I sold the second new replacement on eBay. I bought my wife a CLux on the strength of my D2. It is a horrible little camera with the noisiest sensor I have ever seen. I assume the D3 has been a disaster, In the year and a half they have been out, I have yet to see one in a customer's hands. Wilson Wilson, I have a D1 and I really like the images it produces for certain subjects/use its great. I have also just bought a Panasonic Clux, and used at the lowest ISO setting, so far, the images look fine. I tried some other digicams and returned a Fuji because that really was bad - a throwaway Kodak film camera really would produce better results. I'm not a huge fan of digital, to me even the best digital is still a compromise of convenience over quality, but the Leica digicams - I'll exlcude the M8 from this - are certainly no worse than anything else out there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 23, 2008 Share #258 Posted February 23, 2008 Well looks like i had this one pegged correctly. :D I could tell at PMA this was a BIG MISTAKE for him to say it in public. Last post from me with any info regarding Leica . STEVEN K LEE'S SACKING AND THE FULL FRAME M - EDITOR'S VIEW Home » News » Steven K Lee’s sacking and the full frame M - editor's view Friday 22nd February 2008 Damien Demolder The interview that sacked Leica CEO Steven K Lee gave Amateur Photographer magazine during the PMA show, in which he 'hinted strongly' that Leica was planning a full frame version of the M8 rangefinder, left news editor Chris Cheesman in a state of shock. Lee had told him the information was being given exclusively to Amateur Photographer, a magazine with a large Leica following within its readership. Although the information came out of the blue, I had discussed full frame options with Leica's M product manager, Stefan Daniel, right before the launch of the M8 in 2006. At the time Daniel explained the technical difficulties of producing a full frame sensor in a rangefinder body where the rear lens element sits so close to the camera's digital sensor. The answer, Stefan told me, was to compromise on the sensor size to ensure the M8 would produce the best quality results possible. It seemed the perfect explanation, but I got a sense that Leica had really wanted to launch with a full frame body. Steven K Lee's comments to AP on 1 February this year suggested that Leica had discovered a way to overcome the issue of short back focus and the difficulties faced by digital sensors when light approaches from narrow angles. To announce this in February, when the product would not be shown to the rest of the world until September – some eight months later – seemed extraordinary. Eight months is a very long time for the refinement of a technological break-through, and my immediate thoughts were that Lee was taking a massive risk. Why announce this now, when surely there would be so much to do in the meantime to finalise the product? I don't think Leica has ever NOT been planning a full-framed M series camera, but whether that product will be ready to show in September is a completely different matter. Judging by the size of the other full frame cameras on the market, the smallest of which is Canon's 5D, I'd think Leica has more to worry about than angles of incidence when fitting a 35mm sized imager into an M body. It might be that the current sensor size is much more appropriate for the body size, and will deliver much more reliable quality for less effort. And how likely is it that a current M8 could be upgraded to accommodate a larger sensor? There'd be a lot more involved than a straight switch of chips. It would perhaps make more sense for Leica to look to its R system if it wants to introduce a full frame model, and to leave the M bodies small and discrete. What will happen next is anyone's guess, but it seems Lee rather jumped the gun. There might be a full frame M camera to show at photokina in September, but I wouldn't hold my breath. It's not that I think Leica is incapable of producing one, but that the company's size, portability and image quality ethos mean to make one will be extremely challenging – and in the end M may simply not be the best carrier. Damien Demolder. Editor Steven K Lee’s sacking and the full frame M - editor's view news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 23, 2008 Share #259 Posted February 23, 2008 Guy, Damien's been on both this forum and RFF - the way I read this, Damien doesn't have any new information, he's just repeating the speculation here and on RFF for his readership..... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 23, 2008 Share #260 Posted February 23, 2008 Just ploughed through this thread, I thought by the time I'd reached page 13 I might have some insight! Its disappointing to read some of the childish/rude/downright nasty comments that people feel compelled to make for whatever reason. Wait 30 seconds then type! Why was Lee fired? Was it the decision to revert to 1950's colour red dots on the Summarits? Was it his leak to AP? Was he always late for work? Who knows. Whatever, it must surely amount to something equivalent to 'gross misconduct' or failure to meet certain targets written into his contract. CEO's do not get fired for poor websites (the outsourced web designer will) or for having 'poor relations' with the workers (quite the contrary - the best CEO's are feared by the workers!). I don't recall ever having read anything on here about Mr Lee being a bad manager, or having bad ideas. Leica had been turned around, the M8 is selling like hot cakes, lots of great new lenses, a new R camera, prospect of FF M's.......Everyone loved the idea of the M8 being forever upgradeable, but now of course everyone was really thinking what a bad idea from a bad manager who really doesn't know anything about Leica!!!!!!!!! Armchair CEO's, aren't they great. Without know any facts, let alone the full facts, all I can say is I hope that the decision has been taken for the 'right' reasons only and that we will see Leica continue to move in a direction that will please us all as enthusiastic film and digital Leica users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.