Shootist Posted February 15, 2008 Share #21  Posted February 15, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh please, spare me the 2 cents psychology and the "Ah, ah Gotcha". How old are you ? 12 ? If you do not know that the value of a product is relative, defined by the encounter of the offer and the demand, wait till you end high-school and came talking back to me then. Why do you always suggest someone is 12 or 13 or 14 or whatever age when you reply to them about there comments. You did the same thing to me.  It is you who is being childish. Now get off that horse, Knock that block off your shoulder, Cut it up and build a bridge and GET OVER IT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 15, 2008 Posted February 15, 2008 Hi Shootist, Take a look here Sean Reid's review of a pre-production upgraded M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hankg Posted February 15, 2008 Share #22 Â Posted February 15, 2008 I think it's a good deal if you can buy a used camera for say $4,000 and get it upgraded complete with like new warranty and it's a decent deal if your warranty is expired and your camera has a lot of actuations and is due for an overhaul. It's really difficult to cost justify with a relatively new camera. Of course if the current shutter makes the camera unusable for you, you might rather have a $7,000 M8 you can use then a $5,200 M8 that you can't use but that's an awfully high price for an M8. Â The only part of the upgrade policy I don't get is that they won't be offering new cameras with the upgrade included. The upgrade price is no surprise considering it's Leica. But telling new purchasers they have to throw away a new shutter and LCD glass to have the upgrade and pay for those components twice is a bit inane even in Leica world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 15, 2008 Share #23  Posted February 15, 2008 replacing an almost new working shutter with another new working shutter is kind of nuts. Well, there are those people who love the current shutter’s 1/8000 s and its 1/250 s flash sync speed, and who don’t care about the noise. And then, there are those who’d prefer a quieter shutter and can live with a slightly slower maximum shutter speed. There are even those who believe that the old shutter is somehow faulty and Leica just refuses to admit it.  And the great thing is: Everyone can choose to do whatever he thinks is best for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted February 15, 2008 Share #24  Posted February 15, 2008 Well, there are those people who love the current shutter’s 1/8000 s and its 1/250 s flash sync speed, and who don’t care about the noise. And then, there are those who’d prefer a quieter shutter and can live with a slightly slower maximum shutter speed. There are even those who believe that the old shutter is somehow faulty and Leica just refuses to admit it. And the great thing is: Everyone can choose to do whatever he thinks is best for him.  Actually if I had to buy a new M8 I would want to get a quit shutter and not pay 1200 € extra for it. Its like buying a red BMW and pay $10000 to get it painted silver afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted February 15, 2008 Share #25 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Two of my M8-shooting pals handled the upgraded M8 and both of them said its quieter but just as obtrusive. They said its like an M7 with the motor drive attached. Get rid of the effin motor recocking, or swaddle it in sound deadener, or disconnect it to a button so the photographer can stuff the camera under his coat to recock it, and you got a done deal. Of course I expect whoever spends $1800 on it is going to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulberrybay Posted February 15, 2008 Share #26 Â Posted February 15, 2008 I love my M8 and I love my $$ as well. But to pay that much for a quieter shutter and a scratch proof screen, is probably something I can live with until the "upgrade package" becomes more holistic, rather then address just noise and scratch issues. Worried of a scratched LCD screen? Well then get a 2.5" screen protector film. Cost me only $16. Â MB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #27 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'll start off with one and then save up for the next! I've just stood up the chance of getting a used Canon 300 2.8 at Map Camera in Tokyo - it wasn't THAT much cheaper than in the UK, so I've now got my fighting fund for the M8 upgrade. I truly do want the quieter shutter... Â I thought of you, Chris, as I was testing that. I know you photograph performances. Â Cheers, Â Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #28  Posted February 15, 2008 Sean's review is helpful, as always. I'll just have to think for a while about whether a 'tick-whoosh' is worth all that money.  That's a fair question, for sure. I think if one is happy with the current M8's shutter sound and feel then the money might be better spent on other things.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #29  Posted February 15, 2008 I think it's a good deal if you can buy a used camera for say $4,000 and get it upgraded complete with like new warranty and it's a decent deal if your warranty is expired and your camera has a lot of actuations and is due for an overhaul. It's really difficult to cost justify with a relatively new camera. Of course if the current shutter makes the camera unusable for you, you might rather have a $7,000 M8 you can use then a $5,200 M8 that you can't use but that's an awfully high price for an M8. The only part of the upgrade policy I don't get is that they won't be offering new cameras with the upgrade included. The upgrade price is no surprise considering it's Leica. But telling new purchasers they have to throw away a new shutter and LCD glass to have the upgrade and pay for those components twice is a bit inane even in Leica world.  Hi Hank,  Some dealers, apparently, will be buying the upgrades for some of their stock so that they have upgraded models on the shelf. Of course, they won't be cheap.  ------------- To all,  Looking at the cost question... This is certainly an optional upgrade and, quite simply, it will be worth the money for some and not worth it for others. Its really as simple as that.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #30  Posted February 15, 2008 Well, there are those people who love the current shutter’s 1/8000 s and its 1/250 s flash sync speed, and who don’t care about the noise. And then, there are those who’d prefer a quieter shutter and can live with a slightly slower maximum shutter speed.  Exactly.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #31 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Two of my M8-shooting pals handled the upgraded M8 and both of them said its quieter but just as obtrusive. They said its like an M7 with the motor drive attached. Get rid of the effin motor recocking, or swaddle it in sound deadener, or disconnect it to a button so the photographer can stuff the camera under his coat to recock it, and you got a done deal. Of course I expect whoever spends $1800 on it is going to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. Â I find it much less noticeable and so did my two "listeners". The duration is still there, of course, and I suppose that's what your friends object to. Â Cheers, Â Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 15, 2008 Share #32  Posted February 15, 2008 Mark, I tested both cameras side by side. I'm not sure what you're referring to.  Sean Sean since you tested both cameras side by side did you LOOK AT the shutters in each and can you tell if they are actually different shutters.  There is a report of the newest LFI having a article about how Leica is Re-Tuning the "ORIGINAL" shutter to make it quieter.  Does the new quieter M8 you tested have a completely NEW shutter in it??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 15, 2008 Share #33 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Jack and I came to the same conclusion when we played with it at PMA in our Leica meeting. We both would like to do the upgrade after we heard and felt the difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndjambrose Posted February 15, 2008 Share #34  Posted February 15, 2008 Mark, I tested both cameras side by side. I'm not sure what you're referring to.  Sean  Sean - maybe you can confirm something for me based on your recent experience.  My perception of the new shutter is that it is quieter. But since the existing shutter is not itself the noisy element, the claim of an overall quieter shutter release may be a little misleading. The shutter on my M8 isn't actually that loud - more than the M7, less than an SLR mirror flip, and overall quite bearable.  The obtrusively loud element is the motorised cocking that follows immediately after the shutter release. And, as far as I've been able to discover, the shutter cock remains exactly the same in the new version of the M8.  Your thoughts would be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted February 15, 2008 Share #35  Posted February 15, 2008 Mark, I tested both cameras side by side. I'm not sure what you're referring to.  Sean  Sean, you have provided all of us with very important and early in the process information and for that I thank you. I will add you do this with a calm clear humility without all the look at me I am a Leica beta tester puffery I have seen floating around. Your reviews are factual, fair, thorough, I never hesitate to recommend your review site.  The price is the price - people will disagree and agree to disagree about Leica's approach, etc and that is what these forums are about. Some good points have been made on both sides of the upgrade price, etc.  I have two M8's one was replaced rather than repaired when Pascal reported the issues with the green bands under specific lighting conditions, etc. That replacement was done graciously by Leica USA Jan. 07 - so rather than having to send the camera to Solms I was sent a new body - GREAT SERVICE. The second body one was purchased already updated. Both bodies operate flawlessly most of the time (touching wood). I have been fastidious about managing the batteries, and I believe this has helped a good deal with keeping the M8 going strong.  I am not even remotely bothered by the current shutter noise as I am on noisy streets most of the time - street noise is more often then not much louder than the M8. I too use a Softie and prefer it, but do find the shutter release gritty, but then I am no Walt so will not attempt to fix it myself but again not a biggie for me. As for the new LCD screen, again not a biggie.... I am relatively careful.  The two year warranty is in my opinion worth half the value of the upgrade. By way of value, a friend recently extended his D3 warranty to four years (we get two years in Canada) and it cost an additional $500 plus tax and had to be done when he purchased the camera.  The problem I have is - I don't feel there is much in this upgrade I need at this point, other than a good CLA but that is even that is questionable. I do feel however it is like buying a house and not maintaining it as needed. I could be wrong here, but I could go on for a long time without the upgrade and be perfectly happy. I also worry there is more to this upgrade than a new shutter, a clean, new screen cover, and warranty. Well in house could/would/should Leica replace some electronics they are are not speaking about at this point? It is not about the how much, but about how necessary.  Sigh - your thoughts are appreciated.  Best Regards Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #36  Posted February 15, 2008 Sean since you tested both cameras side by side did you LOOK AT the shutters in each and can you tell if they are actually different shutters. There is a report of the newest LFI having a article about how Leica is Re-Tuning the "ORIGINAL" shutter to make it quieter.  Does the new quieter M8 you tested have a completely NEW shutter in it???  Hi Ed,  Yes, I'm told it has the pre-production version of the new shutter. I just looked in through the lens mount and both shutters look the same from the front, but that doesn't really tell us anything. If Leica says its a new shutter, vs. a tweaking of the existing shutter, then I have no reason to not believe that.  Also...does it matter? The new shutter system is smoother and quieter and that's what really matters to me.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 15, 2008 Share #37  Posted February 15, 2008 Sean, you have provided all of us with very important and early in the process information and for that I thank you. I will add you do this with a calm clear humility without all the look at me I am a Leica beta tester puffery I have seen floating around. Your reviews are factual, fair, thorough, I never hesitate to recommend your review site. The price is the price - people will disagree and agree to disagree about Leica's approach, etc and that is what these forums are about. Some good points have been made on both sides of the upgrade price, etc.  I have two M8's one was replaced rather than repaired when Pascal reported the issues with the green bands under specific lighting conditions, etc. That replacement was done graciously by Leica USA Jan. 07 - so rather than having to send the camera to Solms I was sent a new body - GREAT SERVICE. The second body one was purchased already updated. Both bodies operate flawlessly most of the time (touching wood). I have been fastidious about managing the batteries, and I believe this has helped a good deal with keeping the M8 going strong.  I am not even remotely bothered by the current shutter noise as I am on noisy streets most of the time - street noise is more often then not much louder than the M8. I too use a Softie and prefer it, but do find the shutter release gritty, but then I am no Walt so will not attempt to fix it myself but again not a biggie for me. As for the new LCD screen, again not a biggie.... I am relatively careful.  The two year warranty is in my opinion worth half the value of the upgrade. By way of value, a friend recently extended his D3 warranty to four years (we get two years in Canada) and it cost an additional $500 plus tax and had to be done when he purchased the camera.  The problem I have is - I don't feel there is much in this upgrade I need at this point, other than a good CLA but that is even that is questionable. I do feel however it is like buying a house and not maintaining it as needed. I could be wrong here, but I could go on for a long time without the upgrade and be perfectly happy. I also worry there is more to this upgrade than a new shutter, a clean, new screen cover, and warranty. Well in house could/would/should Leica replace some electronics they are are not speaking about at this point? It is not about the how much, but about how necessary.  Sigh - your thoughts are appreciated.  Best Regards Terry.   Yea those beta testers are a bunch of lying SOB's. What a joke this comment is. I had enough. Bye Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #38 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Sean - maybe you can confirm something for me based on your recent experience. Â My perception of the new shutter is that it is quieter. But since the existing shutter is not itself the noisy element, the claim of an overall quieter shutter release may be a little misleading. The shutter on my M8 isn't actually that loud - more than the M7, less than an SLR mirror flip, and overall quite bearable. Â The obtrusively loud element is the motorised cocking that follows immediately after the shutter release. And, as far as I've been able to discover, the shutter cock remains exactly the same in the new version of the M8. Â Your thoughts would be interesting. Â The actual shutter cocking noise is quieter with the new system in the pre-production model I'm testing. One can still hear it, of course, but it's quieter. Â Â Also, listening to both cameras side by side, its clear that the current M8's shutter noise, itself, is much more noticeable than that of the new version. So that "clack" before the shutter re-cocking is part of what makes the camera more noticeable. Â Cheers, Â Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 15, 2008 Share #39 Â Posted February 15, 2008 Gentlemen (you know who you are) Â Do you think that we could have ONE M8 thread where people don't resort to insulting each other please? Â Let's keep this civil. Â Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 15, 2008 Share #40  Posted February 15, 2008 Sean, you have provided all of us with very important and early in the process information and for that I thank you. I will add you do this with a calm clear humility without all the look at me I am a Leica beta tester puffery I have seen floating around. Your reviews are factual, fair, thorough, I never hesitate to recommend your review site. The price is the price - people will disagree and agree to disagree about Leica's approach, etc and that is what these forums are about. Some good points have been made on both sides of the upgrade price, etc.  I have two M8's one was replaced rather than repaired when Pascal reported the issues with the green bands under specific lighting conditions, etc. That replacement was done graciously by Leica USA Jan. 07 - so rather than having to send the camera to Solms I was sent a new body - GREAT SERVICE. The second body one was purchased already updated. Both bodies operate flawlessly most of the time (touching wood). I have been fastidious about managing the batteries, and I believe this has helped a good deal with keeping the M8 going strong.  I am not even remotely bothered by the current shutter noise as I am on noisy streets most of the time - street noise is more often then not much louder than the M8. I too use a Softie and prefer it, but do find the shutter release gritty, but then I am no Walt so will not attempt to fix it myself but again not a biggie for me. As for the new LCD screen, again not a biggie.... I am relatively careful.  The two year warranty is in my opinion worth half the value of the upgrade. By way of value, a friend recently extended his D3 warranty to four years (we get two years in Canada) and it cost an additional $500 plus tax and had to be done when he purchased the camera.  The problem I have is - I don't feel there is much in this upgrade I need at this point, other than a good CLA but that is even that is questionable. I do feel however it is like buying a house and not maintaining it as needed. I could be wrong here, but I could go on for a long time without the upgrade and be perfectly happy. I also worry there is more to this upgrade than a new shutter, a clean, new screen cover, and warranty. Well in house could/would/should Leica replace some electronics they are are not speaking about at this point? It is not about the how much, but about how necessary.  Sigh - your thoughts are appreciated.  Best Regards Terry.  Hi Terry,  I guess my feeling in your case is: "If it ain't broke don't fix it." If the shutter sound is fine as is, why spend the money? -- except, of course, for the peace of mind of the extended warranty. When is your warranty up? I could imagine some people sending their M8s in for the upgrade just before the warranty runs out.  What Walt did with his cameras was something else. I couldn't begin to pull that off.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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