sandymc Posted February 16, 2008 Share #121 Â Posted February 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) If they can make the R line a viable contender in the high end DSLR market. Â Hank, Â I'd agree the R line will be very interesting. Personally, I doubt that Leica can compete with what Canon or Nikon build at the high-end. If I were advising the Leica folks, I'd build an R10 that is what the M8 is - a completely manual camera with a high-end digital sensor; futile to complete with the big guys on auto-focus, frame-rate, etc. But a small manual digital SLR - that might have legs in a niche market. One of the most frequent request you see on the Nikon forums is a digital FM-3a..... Â Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 16, 2008 Posted February 16, 2008 Hi sandymc, Take a look here Sean Reid's review of a pre-production upgraded M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hankg Posted February 16, 2008 Share #122 Â Posted February 16, 2008 U.S. Treasuries have long been attractive for their good-as-gold creditworthiness as well as for the relatively good yields. Â Good as gold would not be a very accurate description as the number of dollars required to buy an ounce of gold has skyrocketed. Likewise the currencies of all our big trading partners have been rising against a sinking dollar making US Treasuries (which are a loan to the US government) a losing investment. This is why many countries who are sitting on mountains of US dollars are now buying up US companies instead of US treasuries. That is what happens to debtors, they eventually have to liquidate their assets if they can not reduce there debt in any other way. So in hock up to our eyeballs is quite an accurate description. Â We now return you to your regularly scheduled Leica bashing. I mean Leica discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted February 16, 2008 Share #123  Posted February 16, 2008 Hank, I'd agree the R line will be very interesting. Personally, I doubt that Leica can compete with what Canon or Nikon build at the high-end. If I were advising the Leica folks, I'd build an R10 that is what the M8 is - a completely manual camera with a high-end digital sensor; futile to complete with the big guys on auto-focus, frame-rate, etc. But a small manual digital SLR - that might have legs in a niche market. One of the most frequent request you see on the Nikon forums is a digital FM-3a.....  Sandy  I think that would be a popular camera (a digital FM3a or R6) but maybe not at the price Leica would have to charge. From the rumors they sound like they are trying to get a slice of the 1 Ds III, lower end MF back market which is more in line with Leica pricing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted February 16, 2008 Share #124  Posted February 16, 2008 Considering the US is borrowing $3 Billion a day from foreigners to keep it's economy afloat you had better hope those dang fur'iners don't decide to one day say f-'em. While our biggest creditor is China many would be shocked to know that up there in the top 10 of countries we are in hock up to our eyeballs to is Mexico. Yes, Mexico! I think we owe them something like $74 Billion. American's have not really kept up with the changes in our wonderful 'new economy'. Eisenhower ain't president anymore, welcome to the 21st century.  Hey don't blame me for what they do in Washington. I would never want to owe money to a Chinaman or a Russian, they got some sick bastards who just plain like to hurt people. I don't know any Mexicans who have any money to lend. Maybe if Britain and France and everyone else paid us back what they borrowed after WWII we'd be able to pay off some of our debts I grew up in Jersey, I don't get it. Stalling on a debt can get you hurt, but you have to be insane on top of it to badmouth the guy you owe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 16, 2008 Share #125 Â Posted February 16, 2008 I grew up in Jersey, I don't get it. Stalling on a debt can get you hurt, but you have to be insane on top of it to badmouth the guy you owe. Â I've heard they're just as bad in Guernsey too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted February 16, 2008 Share #126 Â Posted February 16, 2008 The upgrade makes sense to me. My warranty has run out. Also if I want to sell it in the next 2 years having had the upgrade makes it easier.The real issue is if I want to keep dumping more money into Leica when the G9s, Ricoh's of the world are getting closer and closer to a digital Barnack. Â Russell - you don't have to worry about small sensor cameras squeezing the M8 out. I have the Ricoh GRD2 and it's a fine little camera - but if I have to lose a camera when when I'm jumping off the sinking ship it's the M8 with 28 cron - and I'd leave my 5D and 1D2 too... They're great tools, but the M8 covers so many aspects of how I work that I could manage with just that. And have you read Sean's review of the G9? Worth it if you were fantasizing about getting one... Â Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted February 16, 2008 Share #127  Posted February 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) While I agree that there is a difference between a G9 and an M8, as you know I don't believe that that difference is nearly as wide as as your reply might suggest, particularly when range of application is considered. But Russell's question, regardless of the specific camera model, is an extremely salient issue for Leica's future. Certainly no vocational photographer (weddings, commercial, etc.) is going to feel comfortable showing up with a G9-style camera. Even if that camera far exceeds the capabilities of a much larger and more costly model it just presents an image flaw. Showing up with just an M8 already probably requires some 'splaining, eh Sean? (Videographers are facing this same issue today as newer HD video cameras become smaller and more hand-held rather than shoulder-mounted bricks.)  We, here, know the added value of Leica's fine optics and the unique characteristics of the rangefinder-style camera. But are this qualities going to be sufficiently identifiable and valuable to sustain Leica indefinitely (collectors and fondlers aside). I seriously doubt it.  Hi Ken,  Actually, no, my clients are usually just curious about the Leica (if they care about the camera at all). But my clients are expecting unconventional things from Melissa and I anyway because our wedding photography itself is not traditional. But I've never once had to explain our equipment. Ditto for magazine shoots.  There are aspects of the G9 that other companies could learn from. I tested one for a couple of months, though, and my primary concerns had to do with the significant shutter lag time in manual focus, the camera's inability to stay in MF unless the LCD was left on and the lack of step zoom (making 35 mm EFOV the only one that could work well with an external OVF). The built in OVF is awful. That said, I know that many people love the camera and make good work with it.  I'd add further to the discussions of the upgrades but I don't know that I have much more to say about them. Leica stuff has always been expensive. For about the price of a Summarit, one can have these various upgrades and renew the cameras warranty. Some will find that valuable and some won't.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_b Posted February 16, 2008 Share #128 Â Posted February 16, 2008 Maybe if Britain ... and everyone else paid us back what they borrowed after WWII we'd be able to pay off some of our debts ... Â The UK (Great Britain) has repaid their WWII debts BTW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted February 16, 2008 Share #129 Â Posted February 16, 2008 I've heard they're just as bad in Guernsey too! Â :D:D Â I don't think his geography is that good Steve - probably hasn't got a passport either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted February 16, 2008 Share #130 Â Posted February 16, 2008 The UK (Great Britain) has repaid their WWII debts BTW. Â Oh yeah? With money or favors? Tony Blare getting thick with Dubya must've been pretty unpopular with the folks at home over there. My old man and his frenchie pal used to argue all the time...frenchie said we should of took our sweet time saving the Brit's from Germany but dad, with his Sicilian way of looking at life, said there's no such thing as too many people owe you favors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted February 16, 2008 Share #131 Â Posted February 16, 2008 :D:D Â I don't think his geography is that good Steve - probably hasn't got a passport either. Â Go choke on a crumpet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 16, 2008 Share #132 Â Posted February 16, 2008 Go choke on a crumpet. Â Keith's a married man, I'm sure the last thing on his mind would be to choke on a crumpet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 17, 2008 Share #133 Â Posted February 17, 2008 Oh yeah? With money or favors? Tony Blare getting thick with Dubya must've been pretty unpopular with the folks at home over there. My old man and his frenchie pal used to argue all the time...frenchie said we should of took our sweet time saving the Brit's from Germany but dad, with his Sicilian way of looking at life, said there's no such thing as too many people owe you favors. Â Actually, Old Boy, I think you will find we paid in "Pounds". They are like Dollars, only worth more. Â Regards, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 17, 2008 Share #134 Â Posted February 17, 2008 Moving beyond the rude comments and nationality bashing.... Â I think one thing Leica needs to develop is their own distinct line of digital p&s. I've directed a number of friends to the current line-up and invariably they buy the Panasonic version at almost half the cost. If they could give the consumer a unique camera that breaks away from the pack in the $500-$1000 range I think they could do well. Manufactured in China or Japan to keep the cost down but wholly designed in Germany. Â They obviously want to appeal to monied amateurs with their latest marketing. But a lot of rich people don't spend money on items like cameras and computers. They just don't understand the value, compared to lets say a bottle of $100 French wine or a Luis Vuitton bag. And if they do they'll just go for the Canon or Panasonic. It takes a picture doesn't it? Leica really need to position themselves in the lower end market with something very different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 17, 2008 Share #135 Â Posted February 17, 2008 I agree that Leica's P&S strategy is weak, burying their heads in the sand hoping no-one will notice the exact same product (to all intents and purposes) being sold under a different brand for much less. Leica could do worse and look at the likes of Ricoh and Sigma as examples of companies who are doing their own thing. Â Sandy's right though. In electronics, you can trade up-front development costs against on-going production costs. The M8 electronics is made largely of components which anyone can buy off the shelf (or so) which makes it cheap to develop, expensive to produce. Canon and Nikon invest millions developing their own silicon which allows them a lower cost of production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 17, 2008 Share #136 Â Posted February 17, 2008 The D-Lux 3 sells like hotcakes though, and has apparently significantly contributed to Leica's bottom line. I wish I remembered where I have seen that. Two of my friends have bought a black one. The black version was even sold out for a while. Â The Digilux 3 strategy is *much* weaker. Leica appears to be trying to get rid of these in any way they can. Nice camera, but much too bulky and too pricy for what you get. A Leica version of the E-3 would have been much more in line, although I don't know what Leica could add to that camera, which is great as it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakley Posted February 17, 2008 Share #137 Â Posted February 17, 2008 I went to a portrait workshop this weekend. There were Nikon shooters, Canon shooters, and me. The 1DsmkIII with 85/1.2 L got a few questions. My M8 got many more. The guy with the 1DsmkIII commented on the excellence of the Leica lenses. The M8 held its own against the top DSLR competition pretty well shooting models under studio strobes. This photo was converted to B&W and cropped in Lightroom and then converted to JPEG in Photoshop. No sharpening or retouching. If you click the picture you'll go to flickr where you can see the actual-pixels JPEG. Â Â If the M8 is "crap", there isn't better crap I'm aware of. Photo shot at ISO 160, DNG+JPEG fine (B&W), Summilux 50/1.4 ASPH with filter, WB "flash", 1/250@f/11, studio strobes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted February 17, 2008 Share #138 Â Posted February 17, 2008 Keith's a married man, I'm sure the last thing on his mind would be to choke on a crumpet. Â :D:D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 17, 2008 Share #139 Â Posted February 17, 2008 I've heard they're just as bad in Guernsey too! Â Steve - Completely wasted on him; but it made me laugh! Even choking on crumpet couldn't wipe the smile off my face. Â ............... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted February 17, 2008 Share #140 Â Posted February 17, 2008 If the M8 is "crap", there isn't better crap I'm aware of. Photo shot at ISO 160, DNG+JPEG fine (B&W), Summilux 50/1.4 ASPH with filter, WB "flash", 1/250@f/11, studio strobes. Â Point well made. You have to learn how to use it, but when you have the results are at the top of the range. I love the images I get from Canon 85 f1.2 on the 5D or 1Ds2 but I hate the weight. I love images I get from the 75 lux on the M8 - and I can carry it all day without noticing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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