Survey: Leica M EV1 – Future or mistake?

[jonoslack]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

PDAF is faster but CDAF  more accurate.  But as the M needs a very specific sensor configuration I wonder whether AF enabled sensors are avalaible. I guess that the bespoke M 11 one is expensive enough without this added complication 

Hi there Jaap - Leica are pretty tight about sensor design, but what I have inferred is that the M11, Q3 and SL3 sensors are fundamentally the same - except no PDAF on the M11. I'm not quite certain, but I think all the angled microlens stuff was no longer necessary with a BSI sensor (ie M11) -  that 60MP Sony sensor is pretty ubiqutious at the moment - presumably whatever sensor they use for the next generation can be specified with PDAF points

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[siddhaarta]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb lct:

Would be great if this coud work with M and LTM lenses from the 1930s to nowadays. Any idea about that?

On the Nikon Z5, this feature does not work with dump adapters. I don't know whether there are technical reasons or it is Nikon policy (I suspect it is the later).

Provided that there are no "patent barriers", as far as I understand it would require "only" some firmware adjustments which means R&D costs for Leica.

Then it should technically work with all kind of M or LTM-lenses, at least if Leica allows it. I mean they could exclude lenses without 6-bit coding if they wanted to. But that would be very mean ...

Edited yesterday at 02:29 PM by siddhaarta

[siddhaarta]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

I'm not quite certain, but I think all the angled microlens stuff was no longer necessary with a BSI sensor (ie M11)

At least I can confirm, that the Zeiss ZM Biogon wide-angle lenses are now very useable on the BSI sensor of SL3. That was not so with the SL2 or M10 (smearing, Italian flag colors ...)

[jonoslack]

17 minutes ago, siddhaarta said:

At least I can confirm, that the Zeiss ZM Biogon wide-angle lenses are now very useable on the BSI sensor of SL3. That was not so with the SL2 or M10 (smearing, Italian flag colors ...)

That's really interesting - it's usually the thicker sensor stack which causes the smearing (with any wider lens). I've always wondered why Nikon chose a thinner stack for their Z cameras - surely not to make them work better with M lenses!

[charlesphoto99]

3 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

That's really interesting - it's usually the thicker sensor stack which causes the smearing (with any wider lens). I've always wondered why Nikon chose a thinner stack for their Z cameras - surely not to make them work better with M lenses!

I think to accommodate the closer lens to sensor distance versus the F mount (just look at the size of the F to Z adapter). 

As far as young people go, perhaps there's a difference on this side of the pond. As we stare down an oligarchy that's dead set on tanking the economy for some cruel and idiotic reason, I think young people are not going to be able to spend as they were in the past. My wife, who is the main bread winner, lost her Microsoft job this summer in the purge (25+ years there with 100% performance); Amazon just announced letting go 14k tech jobs, many of them local to us, in the push for AI. AI bots don't buy $9k half baked cameras for cosmetic and legacy reasons, humans do (AI bots don't buy things at all). So no EV1 for me so I can use it with a couple of long lenses (as it is we can't even try the damn thing yet, with no end in sight).

And of course there will always be outliers with money - I don't think a Leica club meeting is that great of an overall read on the demographic. Just because a few rich kids show up at a Porsche meet, doesn't mean that their peers aren't driving hand me down Honda Accords. One may have champagne taste, but a cheap bottle of Prosecco usually gets the job done....

[Edward Schwartzreich]

I am of the opinion that this is no huge gamble for Leica, but a “let’s say if they really want the camera they asked for”.    If it turns out that it is not a great seller, then so be it.   They haven’t lost much.  If it turns out to be a large seller, then who knows what might be next.

At the Montreal LSI Meeting, where it was introduced, there was a lot of interest and people wanted to try it out.   But there it was sort of like preaching to the choir.  Leica will have to see how it settles out.   My predication is that mostly old timers with eyesight problems will be first in the line.   Since it will be so expensive, I don’t see young folks gravitating towards it.

As long as Stefan is there I do not think our digital Ms are at risk.  However, if they ever find a way in an M body to integrate an EV together with a RF, then I could see that happening.  I tried to look up the profitability and revenue generation of Leica’s various camera models, and the Q is first, but the M is listed second, yet the exact amounts are hard to parse.  The M line is Leica’s image, at least for me; why would they foul the nest? 

[LocalHero1953]

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3 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Doesn’t work that way. Leica isn’t selling just this one item.

People who make things track the profitability of product lines. Modern computer accounts make it easy to attribute overheads and development costs to products. I'm sure Apple has a profitability metric for each of its product lines.

If course it doesn't mean the numbers are accurate

[jrichie]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, though you can often achieve a more precise focus with magnification than in an RF. However, that does not mean that EVF photography is best used on a tripod or only for static subjects, as you claimed. Prefocusing, as done by HCB, is still an option with M-EV1.

 

I felt when I used the M lenses with the SL2S, despite getting great focus and enjoying the final view of the aperture in the viewfinder, that the process was more cumbersome than that of a RF.   I decided this after testing a loaned M11, that M lenses worked best with the M11 and automatic L lenses worked best with the SL and anything in between was a compromise.  

Having owned the M11 since, the inability to see the framelines[due to glasses] has been a pain, but I never have focus issues, and can get very accurate focus easily on the M11.  I weighed up this with recalling my previous experience on the SL, and concluded manual lens, manual RF, automatic lens, EVF.  

Until the MEV changes this, I will remain either fully manual or fully automatic.

[costa43]

I think it was the right decision by Leica to release an EVF M, it comes with risks like everything does but they decided to give people the choice, I commend them for that.  I do think its price is even less palatable than usual and I would have liked to have seen a more unique focusing experience. Hopefully this comes later down the line. Overall though,  a positive move and hopefully it brings more people into the system. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

I think it's a bold decision by Leica to take this step and test the market. However, the E-MV1 ultimately disappoints due to a lack of innovation. There was plenty of speculation about focusing aids (e.g., eye detection and an indicator when it is "sharp enough") that would be easy to implement today. Apparently not for Leica, though — or perhaps they lost their nerve again.

It definitely represents an improvement for those who seriously want to work with the 50mm or 75mm Noctilux lenses or longer focal lengths. These are also available in the M-system, but the optomechanical rangefinder was beyond its capabilities with them. I prefer to use them with a Sony A1 and an AF-adapter.

Ultimately, younger users will likely find too much lacking (IBIS, AF, video), features that will be difficult to replicate even with the M-mount and an M-shaped body. This leaves it, at best, with the role of a secondary camera, like a vintage convertible alongside the family car (for those, who can and will afford it).

Will that be enough for Leica to survive? I doubt it, and I hope they find a way to create a similarly iconic and innovative camera like the M 70 years ago. But it won't be an "M" anymore. Perhaps a body with L-mount, an AF-adapter for M-lenses (and a sensor with thin filter glas stack) that at least reminds to the iconic shape of the M.

Edited 7 hours ago by 3D-Kraft.com

[evikne]

There have been so many theories about who the customer group is. It will be exciting to see in a year or so if we can get statistics on what kind of people (who and why) actually bought this camera.

[Anonautico]

Has Leica ever published such sales statistics, or does anyone know how many cameras have been sold to date, broken down by model?

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I think it's a bold decision by Leica to take this step and test the market. However, the E-MV1 ultimately disappoints due to a lack of innovation. There was plenty of speculation about focusing aids (e.g., eye detection and an indicator when it is "sharp enough") that would be easy to implement today. Apparently not for Leica, though — or perhaps they lost their nerve again.

It definitely represents an improvement for those who seriously want to work with the 50mm or 75mm Noctilux lenses or longer focal lengths. These are also available in the M-system, but the optomechanical rangefinder was beyond its capabilities with them. I prefer to use them with a Sony A1 and an AF-adapter.

Ultimately, younger users will likely find too much lacking (IBIS, AF, video), features that will be difficult to replicate even with the M-mount and an M-shaped body. This leaves it, at best, with the role of a secondary camera, like a vintage convertible alongside the family car (for those, who can and will afford it).

Will that be enough for Leica to survive? I doubt it, and I hope they find a way to create a similarly iconic and innovative camera like the M 70 years ago. But it won't be an "M" anymore. Perhaps a body with L-mount, an AF-adapter for M-lenses (and a sensor with thin filter glas stack) that at least reminds to the iconic shape of the M.

I don't think they lost their nerve. I think that they defined their  limited target customer group and decided to keep development costs to a bare minimum. It certainly is not a camera intended "to survive" They are doing well enough.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

They are doing well enough.

I speak about the future and not about the past.

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I think it's a bold decision by Leica to take this step and test the market. However, the E-MV1 ultimately disappoints due to a lack of innovation. There was plenty of speculation about focusing aids (e.g., eye detection and an indicator when it is "sharp enough") that would be easy to implement today. Apparently not for Leica, though — or perhaps they lost their nerve again.

It definitely represents an improvement for those who seriously want to work with the 50mm or 75mm Noctilux lenses or longer focal lengths. These are also available in the M-system, but the optomechanical rangefinder was beyond its capabilities with them. I prefer to use them with a Sony A1 and an AF-adapter.

Ultimately, younger users will likely find too much lacking (IBIS, AF, video), features that will be difficult to replicate even with the M-mount and an M-shaped body. This leaves it, at best, with the role of a secondary camera, like a vintage convertible alongside the family car (for those, who can and will afford it).

Will that be enough for Leica to survive? I doubt it, and I hope they find a way to create a similarly iconic and innovative camera like the M 70 years ago. But it won't be an "M" anymore. Perhaps a body with L-mount, an AF-adapter for M-lenses (and a sensor with thin filter glas stack) that at least reminds to the iconic shape of the M.

Everybody seems to assume that people buy Leicas (or will buy new Leicas)  because of the technical innovation/box ticking. . . . . . if that were the case then they would have gone bust years ago - but they are doing really well at the moment (survival definitely not an issue).

People buy them because they are nice to shoot with (great user interface), because they take great pictures (quality lenses) and because they are attractive objects (ie they are nice to own). The M EV1 succeeds on all three of those criteria. 

Edited 4 hours ago by jonoslack

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

People buy them because they are nice to shoot with (great user interface), because they take great pictures (quality lenses) and because they are attractive objects (ie they are nice to own). The M EV1 succeeds on both of those criteria. 

These arguments have been thoroughly discussed. But if we look at the age group arguing them, we're probably not talking about future generations of users.

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

These arguments have been thoroughly discussed. But if we look at the age group arguing them, we're probably not talking about future generations of users.

In the LSI these days there are lots of younger members (30s and 40s) and they buy the cameras for exactly the same reasons - and boy do they have disposable income! These are the future users. 

 

[Steve Ash]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb 3D-Kraft.com:

These arguments have been thoroughly discussed. But if we look at the age group arguing them, we're probably not talking about future generations of users.

Your world is not everyone else's one.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Alexander108]

I am quite torn to replace my preowned M11+VF3 with the M-EV1.

However, I also believe that the price is just too high (for me). I also see the lack of innovation. Would it really have been impossible to use the Maestro IV processor plus the same sensor the Q3 has with PDAF? I am not an expert but I can imagine that this combination would have allowed much better focus aids (compared to what I had on my Canon R5). 

But they took the path of least resistance and I cannot see a big difference to my M11/VF2 combination (besides it is more clunky but more versatile at the same time). The resolution of the EVF is obviously much better. But the added value ist just not enough to probably spend another €2000 (or more) to "upgrade".

[Anonautico]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

In the LSI these days there are lots of younger members (30s and 40s) and they buy the cameras for exactly the same reasons - and boy do they have disposable income! These are the future users. 

 

It is always dangerous to transfer observations and experiences within a bubble or closed interest group to the market.

In six to twelve months the question will arise as to how well the MEV1 is selling. Were the buyers so far only existing customers from the M system who wanted to expand their system, leading to cannibalization of the existing rangefinder models, or has Leica been able to attract new customers to the M segment?

I fear that the market will not grow and no new customers will be gained. A Leica M EV1 offers nothing more than what every other camera on the market has been offering for years. In addition, an M EV1 without a rangefinder offers nothing special or unusual for customers who currently use a different camera system, leaving little to trigger a new purchase.

The M EV1 will certainly sell very well in the first few weeks and months. But only to customers who already own M cameras. If Leica fails to attract new customers there will only be a redistribution in a stagnating market with a decline in the number of units sold for the individual model variants and ultimately everything will become even more expensive, unless Leica decides to reduce the number of model variants again at some point.

Edited 3 hours ago by Anonautico