Survey: Leica M EV1 – Future or mistake?

[siddhaarta]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

Everybody seems to assume that people buy Leicas (or will buy new Leicas)  because of the technical innovation/box ticking. . . . . .

Let's say Leica is innovating (and sometimes even leading) in industrial design, user interface and ergonomics. That is one of the reasons I buy and use there products.

What really puzzles me is the price policy.

1) M-EV1 costs 7.950 EUR in Germany, 60 Mio BSI Sensor, 5,7 EVF, 3"-2,3 Matrix TFT (not articulated), Maestro III, 3vGB buffer, one SD Card slot + modest internal storage - 413g without lens

2) Q3 costs 6.250 EUR, more or less same sensor, same EVF, 3"-1,8 TFT (articulated), Maestro IV, 8 GB buffer, one SD Card slot  .. and you get for "free" a nice autofocus lens in the package - 658g with lens

3) SL3 costs 6.800 EUR, more or less same sensor, same EVF, 3,2"-2,3 TFT (articulated), Maestro IV, 8 GB buffer, SD-CFexpress card slots + IBIS + other extras that should cost money in production ... - 770g without lens

Is this the "Leica M tax", but without rangefinder experience - or is it the price for less weight?

Edited 15 hours ago by siddhaarta

[jaapv]

And it will stop M owners leaving the system ( and Leica? ) altogether. 

[LocalHero1953]

I'm happy to predict that in 3 years time at least 50% of sales of the EV1 will have been to people who have never owned/used another M.
Leica may not tell us exact sales numbers, but this is the sort of statistic they would put out there, formally or informally. 
I also predict, but with less confidence, that by then an EV2 is anticipated - less confidence because by then the waters may be muddied by an actual or planned small L.
You are welcome to say "I told you so" if I'm wrong! I can take it.

[LocalHero1953]

The market for the Leica M has been among old people for at least the last 20 years. I assume some die off, so if (as we are told) young people are not willing, able or interested to buy them, where do the replacements come from? 

[willeica]

40 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

In the LSI these days there are lots of younger members (30s and 40s) and they buy the cameras for exactly the same reasons - and boy do they have disposable income! These are the future users. 

 

Coming to this late, Jono, as I was in Montreal at the LSI Conference getting elected as President of the society. Yes, the genesis of the M EV1 was at our Dublin meeting 3 years ago. I chaired the session where Stefan Daniel, who loves everything about the traditional Leica M, said initially that if it did not have a rangefinder it could not be an M = Messsucher. After some questioning from the likes of Alan Weinschel, former LSI President, and Mike Evans of Macfilos, Stefan said that if there was demand for the camera the company might consider making it. The target size for breakeven was about 2,000 units. LSI conducted a survey and Leica AG carried out its own market research and a decision was made to produce the camera. The camera was launched at our meeting in Montreal last week at exactly the same time as in Europe - there were some bureaucratic issues which prevented the launch in the US, but it is only matter of time before it appears there. The camera was available at my dealer in Dublin last Wednesday when I visited.

In Montreal I tried Bill Rosauer's test version of the camera using a 35 year old 50mm Summicron lens which I had brought with me on a Canadian made M4-P. The, cropped for content, photo below shows French Canadian photographer Gaelle Leroyer (her work is great, check it out) doing a presentation of her photography at our meeting in Montreal. 

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I have never been a huge fan of EVFs or focus peaking etc. Notwithstanding a lot of eye surgery, I prefer the speed and precision of a well tuned optical rangefinder and I agree with my friend Paul (pgk) in this respect. However, I did find that I was getting more used to the M EV1 as time went on. It really is matter of choice and the tools for the job. For what it's worth, Gaelle produces superb work using a Leica M6.

Jono, you may be right about the young folk, but the first 2 of our LSI group to order the camera were in their late 70s and early 80s respectively. I am looking forward to hearing about how they get on with the camera.

William 

[pgk]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm happy to predict that in 3 years time at least 50% of sales of the EV1 will have been to people who have never owned/used another M.
Leica may not tell us exact sales numbers, but this is the sort of statistic they would put out there, formally or informally. 
I also predict, but with less confidence, that by then an EV2 is anticipated - less confidence because by then the waters may be muddied by an actual or planned small L.
You are welcome to say "I told you so" if I'm wrong! I can take it.

But "I told you so" has a really hollow ring to it when it is true!

Anything we predict is guesswork but for what its worth my thoughts are that for new buyers of M cameras (those people who have never owned/used another M) the EV1 will probably steal sales from rfMs simply because it will be a way into the M system which appears to use a familiar technology. Whether overall M sales will increase I have no idea. The risk though is that whilst the EV1 may appear to be familiar technology, its manual focus implementation may not be as effective for many as the autofocus implementation in many other, high quality cameras. What will be worth watching is the number of used EV1s which appear on the market. If a lot do then the probability is that it does not meet expectation. Of course this may help rfM sales as users move further into the M system, or it may mean that more potential users are disillusioned by their Leica 'M' experince. Only time will tell.

A smaller M shaped L camera would be a real spanner thrown into the works though.

[jaapv]

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19 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The market for the Leica M has been among old people for at least the last 20 years. I assume some die off, so if (as we are told) young people are not willing, able or interested to buy them, where do the replacements come from? 

Most young people have eyes that are well able to use a real rangefinder.  I doubt whether somebody buying an M does so for the newest digital technology. They are buying into a vintage system, another way of photographing or simply an icon. The RF will fit into those considerations, the EVF not, or be at most be irrelevant.  That has been the way ever since the SLR became dominant. I was 27 when I bought my first M for completely similar reasons. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Markey]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm happy to predict that in 3 years time at least 50% of sales of the EV1 will have been to people who have never owned/used another M.
Leica may not tell us exact sales numbers, but this is the sort of statistic they would put out there, formally or informally. 
I also predict, but with less confidence, that by then an EV2 is anticipated - less confidence because by then the waters may be muddied by an actual or planned small L.
You are welcome to say "I told you so" if I'm wrong! I can take it.

Wouldn`t surprise me at all.

I think the concept definitely has legs.

I`m not planning to replace my 246 but I`d consider an EVF M  if i do so and I`ve been using RF`s for 45 years .

Having said that I`ve never found either the facility to see outside the frame lines useful or the ability to zone focus useful although I`ve used both techniques in my time .

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

I was 27 when I bought my first M for completely similar reasons.

So was I - though it was a 27 year old battered M3 in Surabaya, Indonesia!

[pgk]

7 minutes ago, willeica said:

However, I did find that I was getting more used to the M EV1 as time went on. It really is matter of choice and the tools for the job.

As you are aware William I do use EVF cameras and in some situations, and with manual focus lenses, they are unbeatable. But I will continue to repeatedly question the wisdom of their solo use in an M shaped body which suggests that they can equal the precision of a rangefinder, especially with wide-angle lenses. I am sure that with longer lenses and especially using maginfication, they will work better than rfMs, albeint that doing so will be slower. Long lenses wre never the rfM's forte. But the rfM is at its best with an len independent focus mechaism which overcomes the inherent problems associated with wide-angle focusing. So its a trade off. Leica really need to be very aware of (and not to fudge the issus) the pros and cons of EVF and rf systems which have differing strengths and weaknesses.

[pgk]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So was I - though it was a 27 year old battered M3 in Surabaya, Indonesia!

FWIW I bought a black chrome M4 in London when I was 23! I should have kept it but it was not to be as other gear was more suited to the work I became involved in.

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, Markey said:

Having said that I`ve never found either the facility to see outside the frame lines useful or the ability to zone focus useful although I`ve used both techniques in my time .

I've never had a problem seeing outside the framelines - I use my left eye.

[jaapv]

11 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So was I - though it was a 27 year old battered M3 in Surabaya, Indonesia!

Indeed, that we grow old does not stop young people from having similar thoughts to the ones that we had at their age. The "dying out" argument is nonsense. 

[lct]

+1 My own thoughts were M4 or Canon FTb? I got both, no wonder why i have both M11 and MEV1 now. The novelty is M lenses i can use with both cameras. I would have never dreamed of that.

[Anonautico]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Indeed, that we grow old does not stop young people from having similar thoughts to the ones that we had at their age. The "dying out" argument is nonsense. 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When you were young, times were different and the technical advantage of competitors was nowhere near as great as it is today.

Young people today all take photos with their smartphones and the opportunity to go to a camera store or even the idea of buying a camera is no longer a given for young people today.

The entire photography market has collapsed over the last 15 years, and today the entire photography industry sells no more cameras and lenses than it did in the 1970s. As a result, prices have risen enormously for all suppliers because sales volumes are so low, and there is no development in the market as a whole to support the assumption that this will change again. Most Japanese cameras today are only sold because of their video capabilities and not because anyone needs a new camera for taking pictures.

My own children laugh at me because I take pictures with a camera. 

Leica is lucky as long as it can live off its myth. Whenever it has offered comparable products in recent decades that did not have any special unique selling points, it did not work and the respective product category was discontinued sooner or later.

[BernardC]

On the topic of attracting new customers (as opposed to selling more lenses and cameras to existing customers), don't forget that this camera is getting lots of publicity. It will bring non-Leica photographers into the shops. Some of those customers will walk out with an EV1, but others might buy an M11, or a used M, or a Q, or an SL. It's all good.

It's the same basic idea as other special editions that are released at the tail end of a model cycle. They show-up on every photography site, and on many non-photo sites. The benefit is not just from selling 500 copies of an M with a special finish (those are mostly pre-sold anyway), it makes non-Leica customers aware of the brand. One day, those non-Leica customers will be in a shop and ask to try a Leica, just to satisfy their curiosity. We all know where that leads, that's how many of us ended-up in this forum!

[BernardC]

9 minutes ago, Anonautico said:

The entire photography market has collapsed over the last 15 years

15 years ago was the peak for nearly-disposable digicams, marketed by electronics companies. The current market is better than it was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. 

[jaapv]

24 minutes ago, Anonautico said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When you were young, times were different and the technical advantage of competitors was nowhere near as great as it is today.

Young people today all take photos with their smartphones and the opportunity to go to a camera store or even the idea of buying a camera is no longer a given for young people today.

The entire photography market has collapsed over the last 15 years, and today the entire photography industry sells no more cameras and lenses than it did in the 1970s. As a result, prices have risen enormously for all suppliers because sales volumes are so low, and there is no development in the market as a whole to support the assumption that this will change again. Most Japanese cameras today are only sold because of their video capabilities and not because anyone needs a new camera for taking pictures.

My own children laugh at me because I take pictures with a camera. 

Leica is lucky as long as it can live off its myth. Whenever it has offered comparable products in recent decades that did not have any special unique selling points, it did not work and the respective product category was discontinued sooner or later.

There was a similar technical advantage from the middle of last century onwards: The SLR cameras from Japan eclipsed nearly all traditional cameras. Leica survived - narrowly.
The total market is of little relevance to Leica: They are a niche manufacturer for a specialised market, which as far as I can tell, has grown rather than shrunk, especially in the Far East. The mass market of cheap compacts and simple DSLRs has succumbed to the smartphone, that is true.

[JNK100]

6 minutes ago, Anonautico said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When you were young, times were different and the technical advantage of competitors was nowhere near as great as it is today.

Young people today all take photos with their smartphones and the opportunity to go to a camera store or even the idea of buying a camera is no longer a given for young people today.

The entire photography market has collapsed over the last 15 years, and today the entire photography industry sells no more cameras and lenses than it did in the 1970s. As a result, prices have risen enormously for all suppliers because sales volumes are so low, and there is no development in the market as a whole to support the assumption that this will change again. Most Japanese cameras today are only sold because of their video capabilities and not because anyone needs a new camera for taking pictures.

My own children laugh at me because I take pictures with a camera. 

Leica is lucky as long as it can live off its myth. Whenever it has offered comparable products in recent decades that did not have any special unique selling points, it did not work and the respective product category was discontinued sooner or later.

I think this is unduly pessimistic. Of course, smartphones have taken the entry-level camera business - this is well-known.

Maybe children in the film days laughed at people with SLRs?

If, as you say, the photography market sells no more cameras and lenses than in the '70s that is a great achievement when the rise of phones is taken into account.

Where do your numbers come from out of interest?

I do not believe most Japanese cameras are bought solely because of their video-capability either.

 

Why do you say Leica lives off its myth, whatever you mean by that and wonder why you would post that comment here?

 

 

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[Anonautico]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

15 years ago was the peak for nearly-disposable digicams, marketed by electronics companies. The current market is better than it was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. 

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Edited 13 hours ago by Anonautico