Classic M vs. M EV1 - Focus Accuracy & Speed

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

10 minutes ago, sinjun said:

People often think in terms of one required focal distance, but for quite a lot of my photography there is no single subject which defines the plane of focus - rather there is a scene with various elements, e.g. of landscape, near, middle distance and far. I find focus peaking useful because one gets a sense of the best compromise focus point to cover most of the elements of interest. This is a more precise method than trusting to depth of field. 

I do not think focus peaking can accurately show you DOF. What CoC is focus peaking using?

[lct]

34 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

Years ago, I used Sony A7ii with Leica lenses using same technique of zooming in and focusing [...]

I still use my a7r2 mod this way. Been doing it with a7s1 before, and with Fuji x-e2, then with digital CL and now with Sigma FPL. For 10+ years this has never been a problem for me, especially with Leica bodies having autozoom capabilities. YMMV.

[TheEyesHaveIt]

I think the answer to this question really depends on the subject. For street or with moving subjects, I think the RF may be faster (though I imagine zone focusing also comes into play here so the RF focus doesn't have to be perfect). For macro or portraiture, I think the EVF ends up being faster in terms of nailing focus, thanks to the zoom feature. You might get close enough focus with the RF or get lucky in most of your shots, but if you really are trying to nail focus on specific parts of the image, it is very hard to beat the EVF. It might be a slower process with the zoom, but if you nail it first time without needing to check focus after the shot, re-shoot, check focus again, etc., then the EVF approach will be faster. Even for landscape at infinity focus, if your lenses aren't 100% calibrated right, the RF patch may not give you critical focus, while the EVF will.

[sinjun]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

I do not think focus peaking can accurately show you DOF. What CoC is focus peaking using?

Agreed, because of the dependence on contrast on the peaking response, e.g. giving the tendency of a tree line against the sky to give a response peaking well before it is in focus. However, I find it quite easy to compensate for this. Also, in a lot of natural settings, e.g. grass, leaves, stones, there are many image elements which have similar contrast. Moving the focus back and forth across a grassy surface at large aperture, for instance, you quite clearly get a sense of the depth of field. One thing which would improve focus peaking is the ability to fine tune the sensitivity as you look through the EVF with a dial rather than be limited to menu settings of three sensitivities. 

[Wipeout]

Leica M EV1 – my impressions

After spending some time with the new Leica M EV1, I’ve come across a few issues that make it difficult to use in practice.

 

There is a noticeable amount of lag and image noise when using the focus zoom, especially in low light, even with the lens wide open at f/1.4. It makes focusing slow and unpredictable. My hunch is that because the M EV1 processor is not designed for video, the EVF slows down as light levels drop. In contrast, the SL2 viewfinder runs smoothly at 60 or 120 Hz and feels much more responsive.

 

The camera has also frozen once, needing a battery pull to restart, and the EVF sometimes blinks or pulses every half second or so making exposure difficult to judge. These blinks are not highlight clipping as that setting is disabled and appear to be some kind of display instability. I first noticed it under artificial light, but it happens in daylight too.

 

It is a brilliant concept in theory, and when it behaves, the results are beautiful. But right now the lag, noise and flicker make focusing harder than it should be. I will be waiting for a M EV2 before giving it another go. Maybe others will be more forgiving, but compared with the SL2 and an M mount adaptor, I am disappointed. I really wanted to love this camera, but it feels like a first date that has ended with one of us calling a divorce solicitor before dessert.

[Alexander108]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Wipeout:

Leica M EV1 – my impressions

After spending some time with the new Leica M EV1, I’ve come across a few issues that make it difficult to use in practice.

 

There is a noticeable amount of lag and image noise when using the focus zoom, especially in low light, even with the lens wide open at f/1.4. It makes focusing slow and unpredictable. My hunch is that because the M EV1 processor is not designed for video, the EVF slows down as light levels drop. In contrast, the SL2 viewfinder runs smoothly at 60 or 120 Hz and feels much more responsive.

 

The camera has also frozen once, needing a battery pull to restart, and the EVF sometimes blinks or pulses every half second or so making exposure difficult to judge. These blinks are not highlight clipping as that setting is disabled and appear to be some kind of display instability. I first noticed it under artificial light, but it happens in daylight too.

 

It is a brilliant concept in theory, and when it behaves, the results are beautiful. But right now the lag, noise and flicker make focusing harder than it should be. I will be waiting for a M EV2 before giving it another go. Maybe others will be more forgiving, but compared with the SL2 and an M mount adaptor, I am disappointed. I really wanted to love this camera, but it feels like a first date that has ended with one of us calling a divorce solicitor before dessert.

Thank you for sharing this. Very interesting observations. I am still torn to replace my M11+VF2 with the EVF1. But the more I read and reflect, my M11 + VF2 is a rather good combination. 

[Wipeout]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

Thank you for sharing this. Very interesting observations. I am still torn to replace my M11+VF2 with the EVF1. But the more I read and reflect, my M11 + VF2 is a rather good combination. 

I have an M10 with the VF1, and although the EVF on the new EV1 has more resolution, I’d still rather keep the VF1. At least it tilts, which makes low-angle shots so much easier.

[Alexander108]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Wipeout:

At least it tilts, which makes low-angle shots so much easier.

I think that aspect cannot be underestimated.

[jonoslack]

32 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

Thank you for sharing this. Very interesting observations. I am still torn to replace my M11+VF2 with the EVF1. But the more I read and reflect, my M11 + VF2 is a rather good combination. 

I think that this is quite an easy decision - if you mostly use your M11 with the VF2 then it's a good idea to replace it . . . but if you mostly use it with the rangefinder (or even 25% with the rangefinder) you're probably better to stick with the M11+VF2

[Wipeout]

4 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I think that this is quite an easy decision - if you mostly use your M11 with the VF2 then it's a good idea to replace it . . . but if you mostly use it with the rangefinder (or even 25% with the rangefinder) you're probably better to stick with the M11+VF2

I agree, it really depends on how you use the camera. If you mostly work through the EVF then the EV1 makes sense, but if you still enjoy using the rangefinder even occasionally, keeping the M11 with the VF2 seems the better balance.

I struggle with my eyesight when focusing through a rangefinder, but the EV1 did not really solve that for me either. What would really help is some form of split prism focusing aid, like the one film SLRs used to have, which gave a clear and precise confirmation point.

[jonoslack]

27 minutes ago, Wipeout said:

I agree, it really depends on how you use the camera. If you mostly work through the EVF then the EV1 makes sense, but if you still enjoy using the rangefinder even occasionally, keeping the M11 with the VF2 seems the better balance.

I struggle with my eyesight when focusing through a rangefinder, but the EV1 did not really solve that for me either. What would really help is some form of split prism focusing aid, like the one film SLRs used to have, which gave a clear and precise confirmation point.

I wonder whether a split prism would be so good either. I reckon that if one is struggling manually focusing, then it's probably better to go to autofocus - Q3 43 springs to mind! 

[Wipeout]

38 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I wonder whether a split prism would be so good either. I reckon that if one is struggling manually focusing, then it's probably better to go to autofocus - Q3 43 springs to mind! 

Yes, I am thinking about getting one. I have an SL2 that I really like, apart from its rather noticeable weight.

I have just ordered a Light Lens 1.4 magnifier to see how well it works with the rangefinder M10 and the 50mm Summilux at f1.4.

[paulcurtis]

This is a really interesting conversation and I would be the target market for this. I don't use enough rangefinder lenses to do the M route. I do like the theory of a rangefinder but just can't justify for a handful of lenses.

But no one is really exploring the UX of the Leica, I'd hoped that they would have spent time focusing (pun intended) on how you can fundamentally focus. On a Nikon Zf for example as I focus a manual lens I get an AI based detection of subjects, people, eyes, whatever and a box that hits green when in focus. This works very well. I can choose to magnify and it will do that at that position. If the camera is seeing the full readout from the sensor then you can very easily tell critical focus.

I was hoping Leica would look at these kinds of approaches and include the ability to detect my eye and what I am looking at in the EVF and make that the point of interest. Potentially having a zoomed in 1:1 area patch around that viewing point. I wanted Leica to do something innovative here. Something that would compete with a rangefinder. For this amount of money it really makes no sense to use something which is basically like every other mirrorless camera with a Sony made sensor.

Sadly it seems not, we just have the standard box of tricks. 

Is there a review out there looking in detail at the UI/UX of it?

Kindest
Paul

[lct]

52 minutes ago, paulcurtis said:

For this amount of money it really makes no sense to use something which is basically like every other mirrorless camera with a Sony made sensor.

Sony user here. You cannot do autozoom with a Sony. You have to press a button to bring up the magnified view. Same with any other mirrorless camera but the MEV1. The M11 with Visoflex2 has autozoom too but is it a mirrorless camera? The question is open 😉

 

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, paulcurtis said:

This is a really interesting conversation and I would be the target market for this. I don't use enough rangefinder lenses to do the M route. I do like the theory of a rangefinder but just can't justify for a handful of lenses.

But no one is really exploring the UX of the Leica, I'd hoped that they would have spent time focusing (pun intended) on how you can fundamentally focus. On a Nikon Zf for example as I focus a manual lens I get an AI based detection of subjects, people, eyes, whatever and a box that hits green when in focus. This works very well. I can choose to magnify and it will do that at that position. If the camera is seeing the full readout from the sensor then you can very easily tell critical focus.

I was hoping Leica would look at these kinds of approaches and include the ability to detect my eye and what I am looking at in the EVF and make that the point of interest. Potentially having a zoomed in 1:1 area patch around that viewing point. I wanted Leica to do something innovative here. Something that would compete with a rangefinder. For this amount of money it really makes no sense to use something which is basically like every other mirrorless camera with a Sony made sensor.

Sadly it seems not, we just have the standard box of tricks. 

Is there a review out there looking in detail at the UI/UX of it?

Kindest
Paul

Wrong sensor to allow that to happen. The word is it would need a PDAF sensor (and hence redesign), I suspect Leica is always redesigning but it's got to make financial sense. Likely therefore for a combined release of M12 and EV2 if demand for the latter is high enough. At that point of retooling and rewriting firmware it will make more sense.

The other thing worth remembering is that I'd imagine a very large chunk of the expense is down to a camera being designed and produced in Germany rather than the Far East, especially China.

[paulcurtis]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Sony user here. You cannot do autozoom with a Sony. You have to press a button to bring up the magnified view. Same with any other mirrorless camera but the MEV1. The M11 with Visoflex2 has autozoom too but is it a mirrorless camera? The question is open 😉

 

This is just software though. We used to have DSLR cameras that tracked eyes in the viewfinder.

So long as the hardware/sensor can read the whole sensor live, then the rest should be code and UI design.

Nikon (also Sony sensors) has a good manual focus experience, but could be improved.

I just thought Leica could be the ones to do it, plus it's expensive enough for that hardware needed

[paulcurtis]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Wrong sensor to allow that to happen. The word is it would need a PDAF sensor (and hence redesign), I suspect Leica is always redesigning but it's got to make financial sense. Likely therefore for a combined release of M12 and EV2 if demand for the latter is high enough. At that point of retooling and rewriting firmware it will make more sense.

The other thing worth remembering is that I'd imagine a very large chunk of the expense is down to a camera being designed and produced in Germany rather than the Far East, especially China.

All good points. Does the sensor not have PDAF, isn't it the same on as in the alpha 1? Maybe it's moved on, there was a time when one of the Ms and the alpha had identical sensors in.

[lct]

10 minutes ago, paulcurtis said:

Nikon (also Sony sensors) has a good manual focus experience

Do you mean with M or LTM lenses? Just curious.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, paulcurtis said:

All good points. Does the sensor not have PDAF, isn't it the same on as in the alpha 1? Maybe it's moved on, there was a time when one of the Ms and the alpha had identical sensors in.

My understanding is that the SL3 has PDAF sensor, not the M11.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Alexander108]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Derbyshire Man:

My understanding is that the SL3 has PDAF sensor, not the M11.

And so does the Q3