Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[lincoln_m]

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Wait a sec! As it has a quality EVF why does it need a monitor on the back? Or will that be the MD-EV1? The EVF is higher res than the monitor so you can change menu settings and review images through the EVF. Maybe remove the LCD monitor and fit IBIS so it's the 60Mpixel X100 the rich youngsters were asking for. Now I really don't know who this camera is for, apart from glasses wearers perhaps?

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[ramarren]

2 hours ago, LUF Admin said:

... The rangefinder of the Leica M is an ambivalent piece of technology: on the one hand, it offers unique advantages, but on the other hand, it places high demands on the photographer. ...

Huh? Since when did the simplicity of a rangefinder focusing system place "high demands" on the photographer? It places constraints on the camera design and applicable lenses, yes. But 'high demands on the photographer'? ... Just nonsense. 

If I were writing marketing copy for Leica, I would cast this quite differently. E.g.: "If a person owns a good number of Leica lenses and needs to use them on an EVF camera (for example, for macrophotography and long lens telephoto work), the Leica M EV1 is a dedicated EVF body which allows full use of the Leica M and R lens lines, including the use of Leica's excellent lens profiles. ..."

I see no point to an M with only an EVF otherwise. And I certainly wouldn't characterize the M rangefinder as being demanding to use for any photographer with a minute to learn how to focus with a rangefinder. 

As I have said several times before on this and other forums, an L-mount body with the form factor of an M and supplied with an M Adapter L as standard equipment would be an excellent addition to the Leica camera line up. An M that you've taken the critical part of the definition of the camera away from ... Not even worth thinking about. 

G

[Kickstand]

15 minutes ago, Mark Fisher said:

Leica people are a strange crew: the company offers an alternative (not replacement) that allows people to easily use an M system and use a wide array of lenses easily and at close focus yet they hate it before even trying it.  I've used M cameras (film and digital) for 20-ish years so I am used to and appreciate rangefinder focussing, but realistically, this glasses-wearing photographer is limited to 35 and 50mm lenses.  Sure, I can use the rear screen for my 21 and try to use the tiny frame lines for a 75 or 90mm, but that is a pretty terrible user experience.  Those who say this is terrible shouldn't buy it.  I thought the CL system and M8 made little sense and I didn't buy them and they went away.  If the market hates this one, it will go away too and the rangefinder remains.  I will likely buy one after I have a chance to play with it.  It is still the nice, compact, manual focus system that attracted me in the first place without the rangefinder limitations.  

Despite what Leica have said today about the rangefinder remaining a "core part of the company", my biggest worry is that this could quickly change and a product like this could become the default for the M system with the odd limited "special edition" run of traditional rangefinder models thrown, in that might still not be offered in silver or black paint.

Remember, no other company on earth makes modern rangefinder cameras so if Leica decides to cut their losses and phase it out entirely or offer them only to luxury collectors, we are screwed. I really hope this is not the case and that the M EVF can remain the alternative rather than the norm.

 

[Reciprocity]

1 hour ago, hexx said:

There's no innovation. Nothing. Zero. Square root of FA   But I'm pretty sure it will sell well, because of "M heritage" even though it's really Q with M mount for much more money.

Yep, a nothing burger has more calories than this. I'm sure they will sell enough to break even on the R&D which would mean they just need to sell one.

Edited yesterday at 03:31 PM by Reciprocity

[Xelamoon]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Kickstand:

Remember, no other company on earth makes modern rangefinder cameras so if Leica decides to cut their losses and phase it out entirely or offer them only to luxury collectors, we are screwed. I really hope this is not the case and that the M EVF can remain the alternative rather than the norm.

 

Actually Pixii just teased a new camera, and if that one has a mechanical shutter or stacked sensor it could be really interesting.

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Huh? Since when did the simplicity of a rangefinder focusing system place "high demands" on the photographer? It places constraints on the camera design and applicable lenses, yes. But 'high demands on the photographer'? ... Just nonsense. 

As an experienced rangefinder photographer, you may find that nonsense. But others don't. See the title of the Amateur Photographer review:

New Leica M EV1 with electronic viewfinder makes focusing and composing SO MUCH easier 

[dante]

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No discussion of phase detection (which comes with this likely Sony sensor). PD is key to focusing aids like Fuji has (the virtual rangefinder). If this camera can't read the PD pixels on the sensor, it's game over for advanced focusing.

I am on the fence on this one. I have an M11M, need to replace my M240 (or at least I think I do...), and frankly, this would cut out some of the irritation with wides and the Visoflex - and focus shift with a lot of lenses. But I would have expected some kind of split-rangefinder simulation, especially at this price.

But on the other hand, given the hate heaped selectively on new Ms by older users (c.f., M5, CL, CLE, M4-2, M240 series), I am counting on this product to crash and burn commercially so that it won't cost me as much used.

D

[rramesh]

I would really like to understand how this camera superior to an M10 with a Visoflex 2 (focus peaking)? Other than the fact that the EVF has more pixels and you can view it through a finder.

Edited yesterday at 03:41 PM by rramesh

[lincoln_m]

4 minutes ago, Kickstand said:

Despite what Leica have said today about the rangefinder remaining a "core part of the company", my biggest worry is that this could quickly change and a product like this could become the default for the M system with the odd limited "special edition" run of traditional rangefinder models thrown, in that might still not be offered in silver or black paint.

Remember, no other company on earth makes modern rangefinder cameras so if Leica decides to cut their losses and phase it out entirely or offer them only to luxury collectors, we are screwed. I really hope this is not the case and that the M EVF can remain the alternative rather than the norm.

 

Yes that is my concern too, no rangefinders in the future. First the close focus lenses now an M EVF built-in to use those lenses. But at least they didn't call it the M12.

An M12 Rangefinder with 36Mpixels lower base ISO and low noise high dynamic range would be my choice. Oh also under £6K too.

[hexx]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

As an experienced rangefinder photographer, you may find that nonsense. But others don't. See the title of the Amateur Photographer review:

New Leica M EV1 with electronic viewfinder makes focusing and composing SO MUCH easier 

That was probably suggested by Leica's marketing department  it can be said about every single EVF based camera with any manually focused lens

[DadDadDaddyo]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

As an experienced rangefinder photographer, you may find that nonsense. But others don't. See the title of the Amateur Photographer review:

New Leica M EV1 with electronic viewfinder makes focusing and composing SO MUCH easier 

Agreed. Those guys should spend an afternoon with my Toyo VX125 or my Ritter 8x10 and see how they like it...

Edited yesterday at 03:39 PM by DadDadDaddyo

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, hexx said:

That was probably suggested by Leica's marketing department  it can be said about every single EVF based camera with any manually focused lens

Give a Sony owner a rangefinder camera, and I bet the majority will dislike the experience when compared to EVF.

[colonel]

M manual focus is the best manual focus, full stop. The alternative ? split focus ? contrast focus ? give me a break

Easier focus with the EVF ? less accurate maybe. RF cameras, you set the aperture, you set the focus. its wonderful. if I want automated I will use my Z8 and be done with it ...

[algrove]

12 minutes ago, lincoln_m said:

Wait a sec! As it has a quality EVF why does it need a monitor on the back? Or will that be the MD-EV1? The EVF is higher res than the monitor so you can change menu settings and review images through the EVF. Maybe remove the LCD monitor and fit IBIS so it's the 60Mpixel X100 the rich youngsters were asking for. Now I really don't know who this camera is for, apart from glasses wearers perhaps?

If LCD not needed-just turn it off and that even saves on more battery life.

[colonel]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Give a Sony owner a rangefinder camera, and I bet the majority will dislike the experience when compared to EVF.

that is like saying give a tennis racquet to a cricketer. You buy an M because you want an M, you buy a Sony because you want a Sony. Great cameras, but different things

[hexx]

Just now, SrMi said:

Give a Sony owner a rangefinder camera, and I bet the majority will dislike the experience when compared to EVF.

I guess for the first few attempts. Then it will hit them. I sometimes miss my RF cameras (Leica M6 & M240, Mamiya M6) but not often enough to pick RF body again. Had high hopes for this one, was expecting some innovation but... I'll stick with Q3 and will see if/when they introduce something more groundbreaking 

[40mm f/2]

I was reading that the range finder is by far the most expensive part of a M camera because of its mechanical complexity and need to manual adjustment (labor cost). So selling the M EV-1 for  not quite 1k less than the M11is likely still making Leica profit. The range finder allows precise and fast focusing only for a small range of focal lengths (28-50mm) and not in close focus range. So if one uses a camera with that restriction the M11 (or its successor) will be competitive especially especially considering its compact size/weight and a huge selection of lenses. A camera with an EVF does not have these restrictions including  precise framing but what would be the advantage of the EV-1 to other high end camera systems except compact size?

Edited yesterday at 03:49 PM by 40mm f/2

[rramesh]

1 hour ago, lincoln_m said:

In Jono's review he addresses the focusing differences/speed of Rangerfinder v EVF and confirms my concerns after my use of SONY A7 and Leica SLs with M adapters.

"In fact, the focusing is always faster with the rangefinder, this is especially the case with wide angle lenses with a big depth of field, where it can be really hard to see where the optimal point of focus is with the EVF, but it’s also true of standard lenses, again, especially if you stop down a bit."

My experience with Focus Aid zoom is that I need to; set the aperture to wide open, click the zoom button, manual focus, click to zoom back out, then if I remember set the aperture to what I really want, then half-press the shutter to get the correct exposure and recompose the image. Finally fire the shutter.

Yes the EVF/ Focus zoom is more accurate but slower if you need that decisive moment image capture. The Focus peaking colour highlights based on contrast seems to light everything up on a sunny day and so I don't rely on that. 

But being ~400g lighter than an SL3 with M-adapter is perhaps useful although a costly option at £8K.

In the M10 or M11 in a pinch one can always focus with the rear LCD.

Edited yesterday at 03:47 PM by rramesh

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[pgk]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Give a Sony owner a rangefinder camera, and I bet the majority will dislike the experience when compared to EVF.

Give a Sony owner an M EV-1 and I bet the majority will dislike the price and limitations compared to a Sony.

I have my suspicion that the M in its designation no longer refers to the rangefinder (obviously because there isn't one) but actually stands for Marmite EV-1 because it will polarise opinion. I have absolutely no interest in one personally.

[rxj]

Some hands on (screw leicarumours for stealing pics and info from this forum) 

 

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