Jono: A Leica M EV1 Review

[jonoslack]

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1 hour ago, Smogg said:

Electronic contacts are not required for this. For example, focus confirmation and eye detection work with this adapter.

 

Indeed - quite right - but it does need a sensor with PDAF AF points, which the M11 sensor does not have - some variants of the same sensor do, but of course that would require new electronics and new firmware - R&D costs which I would imagine Leica weren't ready to spend on a camera which they were not sure would sell. 

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[jonoslack]

11 hours ago, RQ44 said:

Valid point, So why not re-badge it a Leica EV and isolate it from the M series all together? Put it in it's own class.

Because that would exclude all those young people who fancy an M but don't want a rangefinder . . . . added to which it is clearly part of the M series - it has an M body, an M mount, the M11 processor. etc. 

[Steve Ash]

vor 1 Minute schrieb jonoslack:

Indeed - quite right - but it does need a sensor with PDAF AF points, which the M11 sensor does not have - some variants of the same sensor do, but of course that would require new electronics and new firmware - R&D costs which I would imagine Leica weren't ready to spend on a camera which they were not sure would sell. 

Sounds like a plan.  

[jonoslack]

11 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Thanks for the info on the Visoflex II - pity, but I get it.

Regarding a fixed camera-based Magenta offset - which is I think what you are describing? That doesn't fix a variable magenta WB tint issue - you can just get yourself a fixed WB offset that's more to your liking if I'm reading it correctly.

Which is fine, but not what I'm after. I'll keep setting manual WB in camera with a transmission target in that case, for each lighting/shooting set-up. Magenta offset changes based on lighting/latitude etc, so a fixed offset is of limited use.

I don't think the magenta tint is variable - with a single colour temperature and tint the colours won't vary. . . . . of course the result or visibility might vary based on the subject. But you out to be able to completely fix your issue using the new offset tool, better than that you can save different offsets in different user profiles if you so wish, maybe a different one for cloudy days? I still think the blue skies of the M11 sensor are nearer to reality than any other camera I've seen (always too cyan). 

I think it's a great tool which lots of people will like. Better still you can experiment with the tint in Lightroom until you find what you want, and then you can easily transfer that back to the camera.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Viv said:

Thank you for this excellent review.

I am tempted, but the lack of focus confirmation disappoints me.

I will reflect some more before deciding whether or not to trade my M11 for this new camera.

Well, if you are considering trading, I guess the criteria is: If you use the visoflex a lot on your M11 then do, if you don't then think hard about it!

[jonoslack]

8 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

Sounds like a plan.  

If this sells, then you can bet your life on it - but I doubt if it will be based on an M11

[Smogg]

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14 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Indeed - quite right - but it does need a sensor with PDAF AF points, which the M11 sensor does not have - some variants of the same sensor do, but of course that would require new electronics and new firmware - R&D costs which I would imagine Leica weren't ready to spend on a camera which they were not sure would sell. 

I'm not sure a pilot project like this will give Leica a sufficiently objective picture. As I've already written, you can't gauge people's willingness to buy chairs by first offering them a two-legged version.

[Viv]

14 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Well, if you are considering trading, I guess the criteria is: If you use the visoflex a lot on your M11 then do, if you don't then think hard about it!

I don't use the visoflex. Time to do a think.

[jonoslack]

43 minutes ago, Viv said:

I don't use the visoflex. Time to do a think.

Then stick with your M11! . . . or buy both!

[jonoslack]

52 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I'm not sure a pilot project like this will give Leica a sufficiently objective picture. As I've already written, you can't gauge people's willingness to buy chairs by first offering them a two-legged version.

Nice analogy, but I'm pretty certain that Leica weren't going to take that chance - added to which 'doing it properly' would almost certainly have impacted rangefinder sales significantly - not much point spending lots of R&D money to sell one thing, when it's just going to impact sales of the other. 

But it isn't pointless - if this sells well (and the indications look pretty good to me) then you don't need an objective picture - it's worth doing properly. If this doesn't sell well they can just put it down to experience and keep with the optical rangefinder. 

But they are unquestionably looking in to all the different possibilities . . . except I think they have given up on a hybrid optical rangefinder/EVF as being the worst of both worlds.

best

Jono

[newtoleica]

In the end after reflection I decided to get an M11-D instead to add to my M10-M, replacing my Q2.

Options were a Q3, an M11 (used), an M11-P, an M11-D and the EV1. I have tried all of them in store and had an 11-P for a weekend. 

My requirements were:

Colour M11 sensor to accompany my Mono for those times (mainly trips away and a specific annual project that requires colour) that I want colour.

Ability to cover 28-50 focal lengths well.

Seamless integration with my M10M in use.

The Q3 was rejected as I just don't like shooting the Q2.. the EVF isn't good and the AF experience is distracting and makes me feel 'distanced' from the subject. I shoot much better casual images with the M than the Q...

Considered the EV1, but a mint used 11-D came up on MBP and my heart went with that......

I may miss the weather proofing of the Q, but there's always a plastic bag....... (AF and IBS... Not fussed.)

 

Edited 8 hours ago by newtoleica

[costa43]

Thanks Jono, great write up.

The biggest positive that I took from yesterday's release was the clear message that it is the rangefinder that remains the focal point for Leica with the M line, at least for the time being that is. Fair play to them for giving people this option though. I do not value it enough to spend the cash but I hope it sells well as the potential for something a little more interesting (to me) in the future is definitely there. The news about the WB adjustment in FW is also a big win for a lot of people. Leica should be commended for supporting the community on that point.

[evikne]

17 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

But they are unquestionably looking in to all the different possibilities . . . except I think they have given up on a hybrid optical rangefinder/EVF as being the worst of both worlds.

I would like to see a future version that could imitate a RF focus patch in the viewfinder. Not a hybrid, but completely digital. If it worked well, it would be something I might consider buying.

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

In the end after reflection I decided to get an M11-D instead to add to my M10-M, replacing my Q2.

Options were a Q3, an M11 (used), an M11-P, an M11-D and the EV1. I have tried all of them in store and had an 11-P for a weekend. 

My requirements were:

Colour M11 sensor to accompany my Mono for those times (mainly trips away and a specific annual project that requires colour) that I want colour.

Ability to cover 28-50 focal lengths well.

Seamless integration with my M10M in use.

The Q3 was rejected as I just don't like shooting the Q2.. the EVF isn't good and the AF experience is distracting and makes me feel 'distanced' from the subject. I shoot much better casual images with the M than the Q...

Considered the EV1, but a mint used 11-D came up on MBP and my heart went with that......

I may miss the weather proofing of the Q, but there's always a plastic bag....... (AF and IBS... Not fussed.)

 

Ah - as to weather sealing - whilst not guaranteed the M11 cameras are very well sealed - when shooting with the early M11 prototype I was caught out and spent 2 hours in absolutely torrential rain with no way of covering it - it was fine - since then I've simply not worried - the USB-C port is sealed inside and the battery compartment also. Of course the lenses aren't technically weather sealed, but practically speaking they are.

And what a good decision - in your position I would have done just the same!

best 

[thierry40]

One of the advantages I see (there are many others of course) between RF and VF is battery life. I found annoying my Q2 battery low life which I partly think happens because, in street photo in particular, the VF keeps switching on/off depending on how I carry it (I rarely use AF and LV screen). The RF camera doesn’t have that issue and battery lasts much longer. 
That may not be annoying for everyone though so welcome M with VF to the ones willing it. 

[newtoleica]

1 minute ago, jonoslack said:

And what a good decision - in your position I would have done just the same!

Thankyou!  

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, costa43 said:

Thanks Jono, great write up.

The biggest positive that I took from yesterday's release was the clear message that it is the rangefinder that remains the focal point for Leica with the M line, at least for the time being that is. Fair play to them for giving people this option though. I do not value it enough to spend the cash but I hope it sells well as the potential for something a little more interesting (to me) in the future is definitely there. The news about the WB adjustment in FW is also a big win for a lot of people. Leica should be commended for supporting the community on that point.

Yes indeed - if you read the interview with Stefan it's clear that they are working on improving the rangefinder radically for the first time in 50 years! 

I don't think there is anything to argue with here . . . . The M11 had some teething troubles, but they continued to work incredibly hard on it (I know because there were continual beta teams testing changes to the firmware over the last couple of years). 

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, thierry40 said:

One of the advantages I see (there are many others of course) between RF and VF is battery life. I found annoying my Q2 battery low life which I partly think happens because, in street photo in particular, the VF keeps switching on/off depending on how I carry it (I rarely use AF and LV screen). The RF camera doesn’t have that issue and battery lasts much longer. 
That may not be annoying for everyone though so welcome M with VF to the ones willing it. 

The battery life on the M EV1 has never been a problem here - I take a spare battery, but I think I've only ever used it once in a day out shooting.

best

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[Tailwagger]

First, and as always, deep appreciation for the effort, emotion and no doubt angst poured into this review.  

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Indeed - quite right - but it does need a sensor with PDAF AF points, which the M11 sensor does not have - some variants of the same sensor do, but of course that would require new electronics and new firmware - R&D costs which I would imagine Leica weren't ready to spend on a camera which they were not sure would sell. 

And there in lies the rub.  I am quite sad to say that I see this effort as a half hearted one, a missed opportunity and very likely after the initial euphoria, self fulfilling prophesy from a sales PoV. I hope.. I think... see below... to have misjudged the appeal of this camera, but as a long time advocate of such an M version, I can not help but express disappointment over whats on offer, particularly in light of its cost vs an M11 + Viso.  As you so correctly stated in your review, the speed of focusing via EVF tends to dictate a slower pace than can be achieved via more classical means.  Why then would one forego the versatility of the ORF + Viso combination if all that added flexibility comes for, in the US, $900 + the cost of a Viso, which those who have been waiting for such a camera already have?  A little less weight + better EVF resolution is not much compensation particularly when further offset by the Viso's waist level capability.  What was required, in my view, was a deep rethink of a fully manual camera in the age of silicon, EVFs, IBIS and AI.  Perhaps I've missed something. but I fail to see any evidence of that.  Given this concept has been argued out on these pages for a decade or more, I just can't be all that enthusiastic about the M-EV's introduction. 

As for the focusing conundrum, I had hoped given Leica's track record of innovation, they would have tackled the issues head on. While its true that the inclusion of a PDAF capable sensor would likely provide the best solution, it by no means is the only one. I am still shooting quite frequently with my SL2. Last I checked, the CDAF was still in place and working just fine. I would had expected an EVF only M, at a minimum, to incorporate some adaptation of this existing CDAF firmware for focus confirmation.  Perhaps this could happen at a later date, but given no mention of such an update, I've no reason at this point to be optimistic.

And in fact, the release of this camera has me downright pessimistic.  While Leica has stated that the M-EV1 is in no way an existential threat to the M itself, AFAICT, they've made no such statement regarding the Viso.  Somewhat ironic given the reaction of long time M users to the notion EVF based M, I too have now developed a deep fear that the availability of an EVF M could ultimately kill my beloved M/Viso.  A combination, which over a many tens, if not hundreds of thousands of frames shot spanning each generation of M from the 240 straight through to the 11, I have come to see both as singularly unique and the optimal solution when it comes to utilizing the entire family of M optics under the widest variety of conditions. 

Bottom line: As a long time EVF/M user, I'll be sticking with my 10R/11 combo for the foreseeable future. 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Tailwagger

[thierry40]

20 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

The battery life on the M EV1 has never been a problem here - I take a spare battery, but I think I've only ever used it once in a day out shooting.

best

Thanks, great review btw