Is this crazy? Selling my M11 monochrome and going back to Leica Monochrome typ 246

[250swb]

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5 hours ago, pgh said: 

The sort of incensed reply about tech needing to do everything for you was the garbage part and took the question with the sort of worst possible intent. Perhaps a more generous spirit is in order.  

No, people buy a $10,000 camera to get great results, but all that means is you get $10,000 of potential, not that you don’t have to inject your own input. How does the guy who programmed the firmware for the M11M know what any photographer wants from an image, he can’t read your mind can he? If reality sinks in with that revelation it should have sunk in a long time ago with any photographer using any digital camera.
 

Which brings me back to why photographers switch cameras and systems and generally speaking it’s because they don’t know how to adjust the images they have, so they look for another camera that gets them closer to their ideas ‘out of the box’ spending thousands of $ on gear but nothing on self education. If you think pointing that out is not having a generous spirit by trying to stop the wanton wastage of $ then I suggest you never ever attempt to spend somebody else’s money for them by venting your half arsed ideas.

[pgh]

10 minutes ago, 250swb said:

No, people buy a $10,000 camera to get great results, but all that means is you get $10,000 of potential, not that you don’t have to inject your own input. How does the guy who programmed the firmware for the M11M know what any photographer wants from an image, he can’t read your mind can he? If reality sinks in with that revelation it should have sunk in a long time ago with any photographer using any digital camera.
 

Which brings me back to why photographers switch cameras and systems and generally speaking it’s because they don’t know how to adjust the images they have, so they look for another camera that gets them closer to their ideas ‘out of the box’ spending thousands of $ on gear but nothing on self education. If you think pointing that out is not having a generous spirit by trying to stop the wanton wastage of $ then I suggest you never ever attempt to spend somebody else’s money for them by venting your half arsed ideas.

Again, it is the sort of condescending, know it all manner in which you pointed it out that was garbage - not the concept itself. Half arsed ideas, lol. More good vibes. Man, whatever it is that's really rankling you, I hope your day gets better. 

[wolan]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

No, people buy a $10,000 camera to get great results, but all that means is you get $10,000 of potential, not that you don’t have to inject your own input. How does the guy who programmed the firmware for the M11M know what any photographer wants from an image, he can’t read your mind can he? If reality sinks in with that revelation it should have sunk in a long time ago with any photographer using any digital camera.
 

Which brings me back to why photographers switch cameras and systems and generally speaking it’s because they don’t know how to adjust the images they have, so they look for another camera that gets them closer to their ideas ‘out of the box’ spending thousands of $ on gear but nothing on self education. If you think pointing that out is not having a generous spirit by trying to stop the wanton wastage of $ then I suggest you never ever attempt to spend somebody else’s money for them by venting your half arsed ideas.

I think you are wrong. Hasselblad is praised from all sides for their natural color science. This is exactly because a "firmware engineer" as you said, took time and effort to understand what is the best color output the camera can give. Besides that, I do not think that the final look of pictures coming from a camera is left to a random firmware engineer.

 

 

Edited September 3 by wolan

[250swb]

39 minutes ago, wolan said:

I think you are wrong. Hasselblad is praised from all sides for their natural color science. This is exactly because a "firmware engineer" as you said, took time and effort to understand what is the best color output the camera can give. Besides that, I do not think that the final look of pictures coming from a camera is left to a random firmware engineer.

 

 

You’ll have to forgive my ignorance, but why would a photographer presumably with an opinion of their own about their images drop the knee to firmware? Relying on out of camera firmware output is for people who have no opinion of their own. Are you saying the image is perfect and can’t be changed even for a Hasselblad? It makes me wonder why there are so many film and developer combinations if photography has always had a perfect answer? Please answer that. 

[Dazzajl]

25 minutes ago, 250swb said:

You’ll have to forgive my ignorance, but why would a photographer presumably with an opinion of their own about their images drop the knee to firmware? Relying on out of camera firmware output is for people who have no opinion of their own. Are you saying the image is perfect and can’t be changed even for a Hasselblad? It makes me wonder why there are so many film and developer combinations if photography has always had a perfect answer? Please answer that. 

This whole subject does depend on what kind of photographer you are. Not everyone is obsessed over the ‘print’ produced from their files. I very much am, for what it’s worth. Some people are all about telling a story, capturing that perfect moment. 
 

A very long long time ago when I was a printer and pixels were still science fiction, I made thousands of prints for exhibitions and ‘fine art’ imagery. Some great photographers paid a lot of money to ‘take a knee’ to my vision of their photographs. 
 

If the photographer is happy, it’s all good. 

[sometimesmaybe]

On 9/3/2025 at 4:35 AM, wolan said:

Do you see any cons in much such an old camera now

my m246 is still going strong and new replacement batteries are available from lecia. use the surplus money from your m11m on a new lens

[pgh]

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2 hours ago, Dazzajl said:

This whole subject does depend on what kind of photographer you are. Not everyone is obsessed over the ‘print’ produced from their files. I very much am, for what it’s worth. Some people are all about telling a story, capturing that perfect moment. 
 

A very long long time ago when I was a printer and pixels were still science fiction, I made thousands of prints for exhibitions and ‘fine art’ imagery. Some great photographers paid a lot of money to ‘take a knee’ to my vision of their photographs. 
 

If the photographer is happy, it’s all good. 

This is exactly right, and along the lines of what I meant when I said that someone who is better in the field with a camera but not great (or uninterested) behind the computer is more likely to yield a compelling final image than someone who obsesses over a perfect print but is just okay with a camera. Or, to put it another way, while I'd bet your printing expertise did a lot to help the photographers you worked with, it wouldn't have meant much if they didn't usually present you with a strong image from the get go. These things are subjective and some times of images really do depend on exacting prints to make them work, but generally those aren't the types of images made with M cameras. Classic examples of this are easy. Many well known documentarians didn't much fuss with doing the prints themselves for the most part, and it was largely because they were so critically concerned with the frame made out in the world first (Winogrand and to some extent Bresson being the low hanging fruit examples here). 

[250swb]

10 hours ago, pgh said:

Again, it is the sort of condescending, know it all manner in which you pointed it out that was garbage - not the concept itself. Half arsed ideas, lol. More good vibes. Man, whatever it is that's really rankling you, I hope your day gets better. 

I don't see what's condescending about me offering up the alternative to blaming the camera or trying to solve a problem by buying another camera. Your way costs money, and not even your own, my way costs nothing and potentially offers a richer photography experience. The merry-go-round of blaming the camera can be stopped in minutes, not money, but if skill is a dirty word then spend away, the camera store can see you coming and are rubbing their hands together Sir.

[Steve Ash]

Going back to M246 would make you loose a lot of money for sure. To avoid that I would recommend to make quick adjustments via Luma curves or apply automated presets with eg. three different levels of contrasts that you prefer.

[Chris W]

Capture One 'Beyond Black and White' presets are great. In the latest version they offer 25%, 50% or 75% impact on the image.

I usually tweak all my settings anyway.

A company called 'Very Good Presets' have come out with an M Monochrom preset which I have enjoyed using.

[pgh]

5 hours ago, 250swb said:

I don't see what's condescending about me offering up the alternative to blaming the camera or trying to solve a problem by buying another camera. Your way costs money, and not even your own, my way costs nothing and potentially offers a richer photography experience. The merry-go-round of blaming the camera can be stopped in minutes, not money, but if skill is a dirty word then spend away, the camera store can see you coming and are rubbing their hands together Sir.

Still not acknowledging I made the exact same suggestion in a post prior to yours.
 

But, when you sell an m11m and buy a 246, you get some money back. Yes, you lose something, but not more than if you’d rented it for a good while. In the end, you’re better off than if you stayed with the m11m by thousands.

With Leica Ms, if you want to try one and you have the liquidity it is often more cost effective to buy them and use for a month and then sell, than to rent. But yes, my way costs more money? 

What’s not addressed here is OPs other issue about the necessarily higher shutter speeds with the m11. That’s not solved in post. And it’s a reason why many have decided to part with the camera or not go there in the first place.

and insisting it is still about skill instead of working preferences when you have plenty statements explaining the difference now is just disingenuous or evidence of not reading. 

[Smudgerer]

On 9/2/2025 at 10:01 PM, pgh said:

You're not crazy - lots of people tend to work a bit better with some forced limitation. I would count myself among that group. Right now I'm debating jettisoning my X2d for a second film body (even more of a downgrade in IQ than you're considering)

The only thing I would say is that it's pretty easy to create a preset "starting point" for your monochrome files that addresses the flat files (which is a feature in letting photographers get the most detailed output possible, not a bug). 

I won't shoot an M11 of any iteration in large part because of the shutter speed issue you mention, which quite often at least partially negates IQ gains from the better sensor (Essentially many situations where the question is would you rather have an ISO 200 file from an M10 or an ISO 1250 file from an M11?). This is somewhat less of an issue with the Monochroms IMO, since noise is reduced and also better looking. I've found the M10M to be a sweet spot for me. I need to use 2/F and sometimes be careful but it also has IQ that is quite high. 

The old Leica cameras are basically every bit as good as they were the day they were released, lest we lose perspective of that. Also, money spent on gear is usually the least efficient way to spend money on making some good new pictures. So if you can get some extra cash and use it on anything else that helps you shoot more, that's probably for the best. 

Some interesting comments you've made in your posts here on this thread, even if you've walked into a minor spat en route.....!

Anyway, regarding the first sentence in this post I'm sorta on the same path having just sold one of my digital M's, a 10-P, to fund the purchase of a Mamiya 6 and a Mamiya 645 Pro', ( and still have some cash in the sky rocket after the trade )....this follows a similar move a month ago when I made another trade with my Nikon D610 kit with a mess of decent Nikon AF lenses for a Hassey SWC/M, why the hell would I do that? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

I guess the answer is that personally I have become somewhat jaded with the digital rush for the next best thing only to find out that there's no there there and there's not really been much substantive improvement in image quality over the years, ( yes I know, here comes the reactions / noise ), over the past couple or so variations of the digital M's.

I know, I've had them all to date. I still have the M11-D and the M11-M, down from five M10's / M11's M's this time last year. Looking back I do believe that 24-36mps is the sweet spot for an M but Leica seems to want to blow by that marker for what are probably marketing reasons........We all want more, right?

So for me it has become liberating to step backwards into working in film again, 35 and 120 medium format, it's a more thoughtful way of working from soup to nuts and because every click costs you something one tends to ponder more before you shoot, and I like to be there again.

Back to your opinion of the M11 series, I think you are wrong, a tad too harsh perhaps, I am not with you there. There's much to like about the 11's from the different base, the battery and it's flexibility now that Leica, ( touch wood ), has got the firmware to where it should have been four years ago, but what the hell........It works, both of mine sit on the 18mp setting because I like it, and the M11-D is the best digital Leica M they have made to date bar none, so for me it's a good place to stop and take my personal work back into film.

Edited September 4 by Smudgerer
Spelling

[pgh]

2 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Some interesting comments you've made in your posts here on this thread, even if you've walked into a minor spat en route.....!

Anyway, regarding the first sentence in this post I'm sorta on the same path having just sold one of my digital M's, a 10-P, to fund the purchase of a Mamiya 6 and a Mamiya 645 Pro', ( and still have some cash in the sky rocket after the trade )....this follows a similar move a month ago when I made another trade with my Nikon D610 kit with a mess of decent Nikon AF lenses for a Hassey SWC/M, why the hell would I do that? If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

I guess the answer is that personally I have become somewhat jaded with the digital rush for the next best thing only to find out that there's no there there and there's not really been much substantive improvement in image quality over the years, ( yes I know, here comes the reactions / noise ), over the past couple or so variations of the digital M's.

I know, I've had them all to date. I still have the M11-D and the M11-M, down from five M10's / M11's M's this time last year. Looking back I do believe that 24-36mps is the sweet spot for an M but Leica seems to want to blow by that marker for what are probably marketing reasons........We all want more, right?

So for me it has become liberating to step backwards into working in film again, 35 and 120 medium format, it's a more thoughtful way of working from soup to nuts and because every click costs you something one tends to ponder more before you shoot, and I like to be there again.

Back to your opinion of the M11 series, I think you are wrong, a tad too harsh perhaps, I am not with you there. There's much to like about the 11's from the different base, the battery and it's flexibility now that Leica, ( touch wood ), has got the firmware to where it should have been four years ago, but what the hell........It works, both of mine sit on the 18mp setting because I like it, and the M11-D is the best digital Leica M they have made to date bar none, so for me it's a good place to stop and take my personal work back into film.

I just sent my old Rollei 2.8E back for a CLA and have been eyeing an MP or a Mamiya 6 as well,(used to own one, amazing camera... a touch slower lenses with sometimes more clinical rendering are the tough thing). For awhile film just wasn't viable for me due to where I lived, but now I've got a solid local lab and a camera scanning set up. I only reluctantly gave up film when I did back in 2016 (so well into the digital times). Lots of my favorite work was made on those cameras. So I get it! My M10-D is also my favorite digital (tied with M10M I guess), so I think I mostly get that too. 

I honestly did want more resolution when I got the M10. I was frustrated about it for awhile, I shot it alongside a Sony A7r2 and Rx1R2, always preferring the resolution of the Sony but the color of the Leica. Years later with trying the M11 and having gotten into a groove with printing and pushing the M10 files to larger sizes when needed, and enjoying how they rendered I changed my tune on it. I did the math some time back with a project and could only count like 2 or 3 instances out of dozens and dozens if not hundreds where I felt that a better sensor might have made a picture a keeper where it wasn't otherwise. That said, I know the M11 is better for sure in most objective ways, it's just a question if it is in a way where it makes a difference to users. 

Edited September 4 by pgh

[Smudgerer]

Hello pgh, good to hear that you think highly of the Mamiya 6, never used one as of yet but it's on it's way to me as I type this. I love the SWC/M though, use it mainly in 645 mode. I've a Rollei 3.5 too but I have always found them awkward to use. I process all 35/120 B&W at a small darkroom set-up I have here at home, scan with either a Plustek 8200i / Nikon Coolscan ED for 35 and a Plustek 120 Opticfilm for the MF negatives. I tried camera scanning but hated it.......Print to one of three Epsons, SCP800, SCP 3800 & SCP 6000.

With you too regarding the M10-D, I have mentioned here many times that I loved that camera, ( apart from the stupid rear on / off / E-compensation switch ), but my copy was uniquely plagued with troubles and I eventually switched up to the 11-D because I do really love the form of the Leica D's..........I wish they had made a 11-DM because 90% of what I do is in B&W, if they did I would have just one digital M right now.

[250swb]

7 hours ago, pgh said:

Still not acknowledging I made the exact same suggestion in a post prior to yours.
 

But, when you sell an m11m and buy a 246, you get some money back. Yes, you lose something, but not more than if you’d rented it for a good while. In the end, you’re better off than if you stayed with the m11m by thousands.

With Leica Ms, if you want to try one and you have the liquidity it is often more cost effective to buy them and use for a month and then sell, than to rent. But yes, my way costs more money? 

What’s not addressed here is OPs other issue about the necessarily higher shutter speeds with the m11. That’s not solved in post. And it’s a reason why many have decided to part with the camera or not go there in the first place.

and insisting it is still about skill instead of working preferences when you have plenty statements explaining the difference now is just disingenuous or evidence of not reading. 

As I said $ solves all if you have no skills. Needing high shutter speeds has nothing to do with it, if you wanted the ultimate quality from an M11 buy a tripod, but that should have been obvious by looking at the spec, understanding digital imaging, and seeing the M11 has no IBIS. That is why I never 'upgraded' from my M10, the clues were in front of you. 

[wolan]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

As I said $ solves all if you have no skills. Needing high shutter speeds has nothing to do with it, if you wanted the ultimate quality from an M11 buy a tripod, but that should have been obvious by looking at the spec, understanding digital imaging, and seeing the M11 has no IBIS. That is why I never 'upgraded' from my M10, the clues were in front of you. 

Where do you see in the specs or in the manual that one must set the minimum shutter speed to at least 4F to avoid shake?

 

[250swb]

9 hours ago, wolan said:

Where do you see in the specs or in the manual that one must set the minimum shutter speed to at least 4F to avoid shake?

 

The bit where it says '60mp'? There is a parallel reason image stabilisation used by other camera manufacturers hasn't peaked at two or three stops, aside from the convenience of having eight stops the increase in megapixels has also required the increase in the range of the image stabilisation, so the race to the next level of megapixels and IBIS becomes mutually beneficial.

It's true that buying a big brand such as Leica maybe for the first time people can't know everything about it, but the users call to keep the M camera small has come at a cost with the M11 and new owners should maybe have read the reviews closer, and experienced M owners should have been able to pick apart the specs and seen a looming problem. From very early on I've said 'buy a tripod' for ultimate image quality with the M11, and for the same reason I'd use a tripod even with my M10. Nobody can hold a camera perfectly still, there is only ever an acceptable range of movement that in many cases can't be seen at all in a print, but it still moves. And the more pixels you have, the more that movement is accurately recorded. 

[Luke_Miller]

I stopped with the 24 megapixel M240 and M246.  All my higher resolution (SL and Nikon) bodies have IBIS.  When processing I view at 100% and if there is camera movement I will see it. Some argue that since any camera movement with high resolution cameras will not be visible if viewed at print or monitor screen size it can be ignored.  I'm not one of them.  Generally 1/2x focal length works for hand held shooting with my 24 mpx M bodies, but for as long as I can remember (which is a long time) tripod use has been recomended for best results.

Edited September 5 by Luke_Miller

[Steve Ash]

Strangely,I always thought that reluctant handling of any camera will cause camera shake. Now I learn by you great guys that simply the megapixels of the camera are to be blamed and that quite some fellows fooled on me telling I need to hold the camera steady, hold the breath blablabla....Or is it wrong to assume that all this talk is just meant to protect your own wallet which is fair enough  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[charlesphoto99]

On 9/3/2025 at 7:12 AM, pgh said:

It's not about the time, part of it is about enjoying the process. 

Groan. Post is such a huge part of the process, one either needs to learn to enjoy (or tolerate) it or pay somebody else to do it.

I had a friend and pro peer piss me off a few years ago over this. He needed a file readied to make a large print to help promote his photo book on India, and I did him a favor by spending a morning going around and around in LR and PS with my limited skills until we got it good enough for him. David, I said, as he was leaving, you really need to figure this stuff out for yourself, it's pretty basic what we did. Oh, I hate doing it and never want to, he said. So I do??? For somebody else's art?? was my retort. Never again I said (and he didn't offer me anything, not even lunch). 

Nobody truly does, but it's part of the process esp if you want to be cheap and not pay somebody else to do it. At the end of the day, what one does in post is an extension of one's vision of how one expected the finished image to look upon taking it. It doesn't matter if the image was taken with a Holga or a $50k Phase One. Of course, modern cameras get us closer, but the sensor baseline will always be somebody else's vision (i.e. the camera mfg) and not your own.