Super-angulon 3,4/21 raro nº

[estenopo]

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Me acabo de inscribir a este foro, como coleccionista de 84 años, de todo tipo de cámaras, entre las que poseo analógicas leicas de todos los modelos. Empiezo preguntando a la comunidad sobre este objetivo Super-angulon M 3,4/21 negro que evidentemente sus características y n.º de serie 1604042 no corresponde al listado de leitz que lo sitúa en 1958 como de los primeros cromados lt39. ¿Puede ser un error de preserie? Leitz en subasta 49 vendió uno igual, según anunciaba pre-serie s/n. Cuando escribo esto hay un objetivo igual en eBay con el nº de serie "imposible" 13 807 206. No encuentro información que me lo aclare. Escribo en español pero si es necesario, utilice el traductor en línea.

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[andybarton]

Translated:

I have just signed up for this forum, as an 84-year-old collector of all kinds of cameras, among which I have Leica analogue cameras of all models. I start by asking the community about this black Super-angulon M 3.4/21 lens that evidently its characteristics and serial number 1604042 do not correspond to the leitz list that places it in 1958 as one of the first chrome lt39. Could it be a pre-series error? Leitz at auction 49 sold one like it, as announced by Pre-Serie S/N. As I write this, there is an equal target on eBay with the serial number "impossible" 13 807 206. I can't find any information that clarifies it for me. I write in Spanish but if necessary, use the online translator.

[dg4mgr]

Interesting find. The "impossible" serial number 13 807 206 looks like a Schneider Kreuznach serial number - in this case it is from 1981.

Note also these lenses offered as Schneider Prototypes w/ Schneider serial numbers: https://www.leitz-auction.com/de/Schneider-Super-Angulon-21mm-Prototype-Lenses/AI-100-Jahre-30022

 

Edited August 21 by dg4mgr

[lct]

No idea but it seems that the lens is sold by the same dealer at two different prices on e**y. Also the focus tab of the photo above has round edges i don't recognize on my copy, as if it were made in plastic instead of metal. Just for info.

Edited August 21 by lct

[luigi bertolotti]

Yes, me too noticed the focus tab... but looking at some items of late years (like this : https://www.ebay.com/itm/146482161078?_skw=super+angulon+21mm&itmmeta=01K36QRHMT12KZSC0MHZ6A9JNH&hash=item221b0465b6:g:2wgAAOSwfzNn6ABW&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA8FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cWLhPfotd3XR5fmG44r2xIsmWxzov%2FsC49DHwSUai7gU3dE7XyXuLwcgC9VI5on7XMAS9Tpv8AWB2VUSsqYGTSJZ3WPy7H4oVo5CQ2jpP0Fgx7AfwSQQEq9%2Fl6xnn0u2myNxM3aoXQqruG3%2FjMMFLQLvCbdm1%2FmThbSwL0%2BsG0CdZBYKhaagXQYnSLL%2B2VPqnp28yeyXSwh1ZFnzvSVTPPcpD92NYfN7xDfAnIYfmGSzWioK0xz%2Bd%2F2mnsWAoEuUkEuHYdQn59Yx18NgFGvougcY7Ivz6UdJmCDSplTXqQXA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9Sa4teZZg) seems it can be original (my one too is different, but is a chrome 2.035.363 from 1964)

An engraving error ? can be... and seems to me the only explanation (manufacturing was made at Schneider : maybe also the final packaging ? with no control on the s/n of the box ?); surely the lens looks original (supposed the someone did "fake" SA 21, which is uneven...) , and even if should it had been someway restored by a 3rd party, it looks difficult that such a perfect front writing has been made together with such a rough error on the s/n... 

Further very vague hipotesis : 1604042 ought to be a Super Angulon f4 (one of the first ones, also from Schneider) .. was this s/n unused for some reason at its era ? And then, years after, being it a "s/n assigned to Schneider factory" some insider decided to use it just to "clean the list" ? 

Edited August 21 by luigi bertolotti

[jc_braconi]

This is what I have, if it can help :

 

f:cm/mm	Factory	Range	Code	Type	Lens	Filter Size	Hood	Range production	Serial Nr	issued Y/T	Year
mm	W	DR	SUOON 11103	S	21mm Super Angulon F4	39mm	IWKOO	1,548,001-1,645,300	1 604 455	98/1464	1958
mm	W	DR	SUMON 11104	M	21mm Super Angulon F4	39mm	IWKOO	1,645,301-1,717,000	1 676 486	2293/5292	1959
mm	W	DR	11103	M	21mm Super Angulon F3.4 Chrome	48mm	12501	1,967,101-2,015,700	1 967 825	?	1963
mm	W	DR	11103	M	21mm Super Angulon F3.4 Black	48mm	12501	2,556,501-2,663,400	2 583 091	?	1973

[Carlos cruz]

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My working hypothesis is that it’s recycled serial number from some early batch that wasn’t allotted and has been used so as not to start another batch of s/n. Mine is late sn as I wanted to use it on m5 safely and looks similar, down to focusing tab. Sorry for dust on the lens, but she’s a working girl. 

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Edited August 21 by Carlos cruz

[UliWer]

On 8/21/2025 at 8:01 PM, Carlos cruz said:

My working hypothesis is that it’s recycled serial number from some early batch that wasn’t allotted and has been used so as not to start another batch of s/n.

Yes, this happened. Though the 1:4/21mm Super-Angulon was another lens type and it would be very strange if they „snatched“ an unused number which didn‘t belong to the type which was engraved at the moment. Super-Angulons were produced by Schneider in Kreuznach and Leitz Wetzlar only fitted a sticker on the front to cover the Schneider number. Though it cannot be an old sticker they found anywhere in the cupboard as the 1:4-version never had a black front and I think a different size.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to ask the Leica delivery register about the lens with this number.

 

[estenopo]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm pleased that, in my first post on the forum, this question has sparked the interest of experienced members. I'll address my questions about other Leica products at another time.