Just wondering

[Michael Geschlecht]

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

A bit apocryphal, don't you think? - associations to Anglo-Saxon  words and sounds are quite unlikely for a pre-war German. 

Hello Jaap,

I think this repeated "dumbing down" of pre World War II Germans is not appropriate. Beyond that, a lot of these telecommunications from Wetzlar were with people in Great Britain & the USofA. Places where English was a commonly used language.

It could be that some of the people in English speaking places helped to develop & write the codes.

Are all of the people in Leica shops & offices in the Netherlands Germans?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 19 by Michael Geschlecht

[jaapv]

I think that you are not quite aware of the way things work over here. A German working in a shop in the Netherlands is an extreme rarity. Nor are you aware of the provincialism in Germany, certainly in that day. It is only the last decade or so that speaking English has become more common in Germany. Before that Germans rarely were fluent in foreign languages. I would suggest that Leica had two or three English speakers to communicate. Of course education had a lot to do with it. Later, in the second half of last century that started changing. Disclosure: As a child we did travel in Germany quite often, later I did as well. Speaking anything but German got you absolutely nowhere. It had improved somewhat when I lived in Germany for years in the 80ies and nowadays most younger people do speak English. 
BTW in Nordrhein Westfalen a surprising number of people speak excellent Dutch. 

[Roland Zwiers]

Jaap,

This is an interesting subject again.

When one looks at old catalogues from other makes, then one finds telegram codes for the items for sale.
Usually, these codes had no meaning (relating to the item for sale) at all.
Very often only the first letter of the code was idendical for the various items from the same category.

There are also product names that combine the first letters of the company name with specifications of the product.

For exampme Otto Perutz named his films as Per-orto/ Per-chromo/ Per-senso/ Per-xanto.
Ernst Leitz did the same with El-mar/ El-max/ El-dia (for slide copying)/El-kin (for copying cine-frames).

Roland

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Jaap,

Thank you for helping other readers of this Thread by explaining how it is not likely that the staff of a Leica Dealership in the Netherlands would be people from Germany. Which reinforces my writing above where I wrote that it is possible that locally hired English speaking Leitz staff from England & the USofA helped to develop the codes for International transmissions. And, might have added some humor to the 5 letter codes.

Such as SEVUE (See Vue) for a Sports Finder.

And SPECS (Spectacles/Brille) for Polaroid Eyeglasses.

There are a lot of these sprinkled thru the list of 5 letter codes.

I remember what you said about speaking English in Germany. When I lived in a town in Germany in the 1960's pretty much nobody spoke any English. You had to go to a larger city to find anyone who lived there who spoke English. Even in cities not that many people spoke English. Luckily my German was good enough so that I could go all over Germany where I wanted to & do what I wanted to do.

Grusse,

Michael

 

Edited August 20 by Michael Geschlecht

[luigi bertolotti]

Imho, is quite clear that Leitz TRIED, from the start, to give a sense to 5 letters codes : LEICA and ELMAR ELANG  are obvious examples, but of course thay quickly had to invent "derivate" codes for similar items (see the many variations on LEICA, depending on the "as equipped" body... LELUX was quite "natural" , but then the number of listed bodies exploded...).

They also tried to codificate on the basis of family of accessories : filters started all as FIXXX , viewfinders as VIXXX... but once again the products did multiplied... 😎 Yellow is Gelb in deutsch, so FILGE is natural for a yellow filter.. but what if you have 4 gradations of yellow in 5 or even more mounts ?  Someone thought that it was better to try an affinity with focals... so that several "large" filters for Telyt lenses are named TXXXX.. and even the polarizers had to go beyond the initial POXXX.

In synthesis : codemakers were victims of Leica success... a smart tiny camera with some good accessory exploded in a complex universal system with hundreds of products, and they simply tried to keep a bit of logic by product group... with many exceptions... but at the end enjoying the fact noticed in this thread : with letters you have 26^5 combinations vs, 10^5 with digits (and in fact, when they went to 5 digits, the SAME code was re-used for different products - after many years of course)

[luigi bertolotti]

Btw... speaking of 5 digits codes, a more intriguing question is about the ending letter they used initially and then abandoned 😉.. nothing to relate to products imho...

[Michael Geschlecht]

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9 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Btw... speaking of 5 digits codes, a more intriguing question is about the ending letter they used initially and then abandoned 😉.. nothing to relate to products imho...

Hello Luigi,

I would guess "N", of course, becase Leitz was in Germany. And, this was the time period between the 2 World Wars.

I never heard of this. Do you know anything more about this?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 21 by Michael Geschlecht

[alan mcfall]

Leitz used telegraph codes well before the Leica camera. In 8 Leitz catalogs I have, between 1870 and 1903, no codes were used. Understandable. By 1923 catalogs and price lists often used the codes. The May 1925 catalog, of the Leica camera, showed 12 telegraph codes, by  1927 42 codes, and by 1929  65 codes. And we have long known the FODIS ( actual code is FODUA) rangefinder was available before the Leica camera.

A 1923 catalog (see photo), at least thru 1929, Leitz used code words longer than 5 letters.   This seems to be mostly for items other than leica cameras and accessories. I have seen codes from 6 up to 10 letters. Most of us have heard of the MIFLMCA camera. Binoculars used codes such as BINUXIT. Often the base product code was 5 letters, but the various versions with attachments had more letters added. If you wanted a SLEDGE microtome, you ordered a TIMOR, if you wanted this same apparatus with a  special clamp, you ordered  TIMORTREPE.  After the war, Leitz offered a wide range of Optical Measuring Instruments, see photo of 76 page catalog.  All codes were 5 letters.

The 1929 Leitz catalog of most all company products is 290 pages, the offering of the Leica camera occupies just one page. I would be surprised if the leica camera made money for the company before 1929/30.

Most catalogs that use codes have instructions in the forward, that say using the codes is preferred and will result in reduced errors.

I agree that in the beginning of the camera codes, there was an attempt at using logic, cameras  Lxxxx, Filters and Film, Fxxxx, leather cases  Exxxx and so on, but eventually the proliferation of products made the association more difficult.

 

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[Photar]

I have a 1911 "Catalogue No. 43G - Photomicrographic Apparatus" that already used codes with more than 5 letters. For example, the famous 42mm "Microsummar" was called SUMMANAT. 

Edited August 21 by Photar

[luigi bertolotti]

11 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Luigi,

I would guess "N", of course, becase Leitz was in Germany. And, this was the time period between the 2 World Wars.

I never heard of this. Do you know anything more about this?

Best Regards,

Michael

Hi Michael !

Well... about 5 digits codes WITH ending letter (ex. 11914 F - Summilux BM - 1961 catalog) , I have analyzed - partially of course - the set of codes in that catalog, and draw 2 conclusions

1) No same digits with different letter (sure)

2) No same letter with less than 2 digits different (not 100% sure - but 90% or so 😉)

And as an oldtimer EDP man, thinking of the old data entry tools (teletype terminals - punch card devices - roll paper punchers...) the problem of typing errors management at that times quickly came to my mind... ONE typing error is rather probable... TWO much less, and error checking circuitry was easily feasible even in those primitive devices. A medium sized company as Leitz had surely dozens of people (women, tipically) in the data entry tasks, so they used this coding protocol (type 5 digits - space - type 1 letter) to minimize errors in order entry - factory warehouse management etc.

EDP gear was quickly evolving in the '60s.. they implemented more advanced systems, and the ending letter was abandoned in due time.

 

Edited August 21 by luigi bertolotti

[UliWer]

I think there where different „systems“ for the five letter codes. At first they used parts of the product names like „LE“ for Leica,  „E“ or „EL“ for Elmar, „HE“ or „HEK“ for Hektor adding some more or less „speaking“ letters. Most famous examples: „LENEU“ („neu“ is „new“ in German) for the new Leica with interchangeable lenses, ELANG for the Elmar with long focal length, EKURZ („kurz“ means „short“) for short length etc. They even switched from German to English for some of these items: from „EFERN“ (13.5cm Elmar) to HEFAR (13.5cm Hektor). Some codewords are acronyms to indicate their function „AUFSU“ for „Aufsichtssucher“. Though of course this system was too limited as their catalogue constantly became larger.  The „HOOPY“ (2.8cm Hektor) only had the „H“ for Hektor but I can’t find any obvious „speaking“ significance for „OOPY“ (why not HKURZ?). You may associate „zehn“ (ten) in ELZEN (10.5cm Elmar) but I can’t find any association for „Gra“ in HEGRA (7.3cm Hektor).  

I have read somewhere - though don‘t remember where - that certain letters in the codes which were no composites of elements of the product names indicated the department of Leitz where the device had been developed. An „O“ stood for the department of devices for photography. Therefore you find so many codewords with one or several „O“ in them. Most codenames for projectors have an „U“, enlagers often have a „V“ which seem to be the indicators for the departments. For binoculars they generally used codes with more than five letters, though special devices for binoculars usually have five letter codes with a „J“.   

Though again this limited the possible letter combinations. So you find combinations of „O“ and „U“ (OUCLO, OUFRO, OUBIO, UXOOR) for photography devices or for projector devices (UPEOB, SOUUW, DUUYO etc.).

First letters often indicated that devices belonged to another device with the same first letter: PLOOT, POOIM, POOXT, PAMOOO etc; OZYXO OZWTO, OTZFO, OTSRO etc. 

Though the farther you go into detail the more exceptions you find. At some stage the whole „system“ became weird. Perhaps the first and most famous item where no systematic approach seems to work was the FIKUS: no „O“ though it was a photographic device, all other hoods from Wetzlar with letter codes have at least one „O“. „FI“ seems to indicate a filter, but it isn’t. Perhaps a hood which could be fixed on a filter, like FISON (Filter + Sonnenblende). So why not „FIKOS“ or even „FIOOS“? 

 

Edited August 28 by UliWer