Is an M11 in low light working for a spoiled Q3 photographer?

[Alexander108]

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As my Summicron 35 f/2 arrived yesterday my wife and I visited the Altstadtfest in Wolfenbüttel to test the M10-M. The shooting experience was much better than anticipated. Pretty much all shots are in focus. Almost all shots 1/250s or faster. No motion blur, of course. But the low light capabilities just blew my mind. 

 

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This one is ISO 12500. Unbelievable!

Cropping with the 42MP is not an issue at all.

 

Extremely happy with my new camera and lens.

 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 8/9/2025 at 9:30 PM, jgeenen said:

This is a very common myth. In fact shutter shake mainly affects (if at all) shutter speeds close to but below flash sync speeds. Why? Shutter shake affects the first milliseconds of the exposure only - it fades away quickly. When the shutter speed is short, most of the picture is (due to the focal plane shutter mode of operation) is exposed when the shake has already died away. If the shutter speed is long, only a short part of the total exposure is affected to shutter shake. (But don’t mix this up with tripod vibrations caused by shutter or mirror slap - those don’t fade away that quickly). The exposure times prone to shutter shake are from 1/30 to 1/180 (with 1/180 the worst). Some MFT users will remember the complaints with shutter shake of the early E-M1 (which was later solved by firmware optimization).

there is another (more psychological) affect I observe with the M11 at slow shutter speeds: while the first cutter movement is comparingly noisy, the second curtain is almost quiet. I tend to believe with shutter speed of 1/8 or 1/15 is already over when I hear the big „click“ but then the faint closing click chimes in…

This is not true. Shutter shock (the term you were looking for) can operate well above the flash sync speed. The second curtain does nothing to subside any vibration caused by the first. I have repeatedly seen shutter shock in the Sl2 and SL3 all the way to 1/f on longer lenses. That means provable shutter shock at 1/500 on a 600mm lens. The SL3 has a sync speed of 1/200. All one needs to do is shoot the same shot twice. Once with mechanical and again with electronic shutter.

The M11 has some (very small) shutter shock with 90mm and 135mm lenses. I would advise the OP to consider electronic shutter when dragging the shutter. You might see a half stop of so of camera shake improvement with some lenses.

Leica would do well to update ALL their current cameras with a decent auto EFCS system.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 8/10/2025 at 11:17 PM, Tseg said:

There was a recent You Tube video that compared focal lengths with other brands that shows the Q3 43 is also closer to 40mm focal length.

Carrying a Q3 and a Q3 43 is actually quite a combo for day to day image capture capability.  With that said, as most know, the Q photographic experience is very different than an M.  Of course, the Q lenses are also excellent.   Cost differences between an M10 and M11 are nominal once one considers the cost of modern Leica glass that is the equivalent to that used in Q cameras.

Specific to low light, while the M hand held in low light does not have the same capability as a Q held in low light, a photographer should/will seek to optimize the capability of their equipment while creating art.  If just trying to document a scene in low light, use an iPhone with flash.

 

On 8/11/2025 at 12:09 AM, Jeff S said:

 

This test is flawed. Focal length is measured at infinity. Not at close distance. Has been for a hundred years. Focal length reduces at shorter focus distances most of the time. It's the fundemental difference between photo and video lenses FFS.... After all the videos on-line about focus breathing you'd think they'd know this by now. The usual problem with Youtubers not testing stuff accurately that leads to *facts*. It's highly unlikely the Q3 is exactly 43mm. But it isn't 40mm unless this lens has zero focus breathing. The M Summilux 50 is actually 52.4 (marked on the lens). Leica don't mark most lenses though (Hasselblad give exact mm's in the published charts). The Sony 200-600 is 540-550 mm at minimum focus distance because of breathing. So absolutely zero can be proven with this test. I doubt there's a lens in existance that's *exactly* it's measured focal length. And it not like 1.3mm matters in any relevant form except when measurbating on camera forums.

Fred Miranda did an infinity test on the Q3 lens and found it to be 26.7mm after corrections. It should be noted that other software may have a slightly different result as well. LR and C1 usually have slighty different usable pixel dimensions. That's the only proper test I've seen on Q lenses. Testing actual focal length is more than pointing a camera at a Zena figure.

Gordon

[jgeenen]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

This is not true

If you read my post completely, I explicitly excluded vibrations induced to tripods. Those die away very slowly, can generate a high amplitude (at resonance frequency) and can affect tele or Astro photography at all shutter speeds I absolutely agree that this kind of camera shake can be avoided by electronic first curtains. In practical hand held photography with a M camera the first curtain vibrations are overlayed by other vibrations and therefore indistinguishable. I however admit an imprecise statement. As shutter operation is analog, shake never stops at a certain shutter speed but gets smaller and less visible. 

[Ne314satel]

If you need an Ibis, it's better to use the Q3 or buy a Hasselblad (the X2D will be cheap soon). The M system is good when you know what you need it for. The M11 is a great camera, but you have to be careful with the 50mm/0.95 or 1.0 lenses. If the author starts the conversation with the camera model, and not with the types of lenses he likes, it's better not to buy the M11.

[Alexander108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ne314satel:

If the author starts the conversation with the camera model, and not with the types of lenses he likes, it's better not to buy the M11.

Too late...

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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On 8/21/2025 at 3:39 PM, jgeenen said:

If you read my post completely, I explicitly excluded vibrations induced to tripods. Those die away very slowly, can generate a high amplitude (at resonance frequency) and can affect tele or Astro photography at all shutter speeds I absolutely agree that this kind of camera shake can be avoided by electronic first curtains. In practical hand held photography with a M camera the first curtain vibrations are overlayed by other vibrations and therefore indistinguishable. I however admit an imprecise statement. As shutter operation is analog, shake never stops at a certain shutter speed but gets smaller and less visible. 

I never mentioned tripods. I am talking about vibration effects caused by the first shutter curtain. Handheld if you like. The vibration effects on image quality can be seen well above the flash sync speed depending on the focal length of the lens. Shutter shock isn't seen as much on M cameras because the lenses are relatively short and the visibility of the first curtain vibration is associated with magnification.  That does not mean it's  not there, If you start printing longer M lenses as big as I do the vibration effects of the M first curtain are visible, sometimes up to relatively high shutter speeds. The high resolution of the M11 doesn't help either. Leica is the only brand that has not implemented EFCS in any of its cameras and it hurts its overall IQ.

Gordon

[BWColor]

Based on your images, you should buy the best camera in the Leica catalog,the M11 Monochrom….

[pgh]

4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I never mentioned tripods. I am talking about vibration effects caused by the first shutter curtain. Handheld if you like. The vibration effects on image quality can be seen well above the flash sync speed depending on the focal length of the lens. Shutter shock isn't seen as much on M cameras because the lenses are relatively short and the visibility of the first curtain vibration is associated with magnification.  That does not mean it's  not there, If you start printing longer M lenses as big as I do the vibration effects of the M first curtain are visible, sometimes up to relatively high shutter speeds. The high resolution of the M11 doesn't help either. Leica is the only brand that has not implemented EFCS in any of its cameras and it hurts its overall IQ.

Gordon

Careful implying that the m11 design may have impediments in reaching peak sharpness - despite your years of professional experience some are going to ask you if you’ve ever, you know, really looked and tested your theories, because are you sure you know what you’re talking about? Do you really believe what you see with your own eyes? 

[ronaldc]

the shutter shock definitely effects low shutter photos handheld, if nothing is moving you can use the electronic shutter or use a tripod. 

[jaapv]

And the M is not the only camera. This is pretty universal. 

[Alexander108]

Well, I am getting more and more used to my M, which turned out to be the M10 Monochrom and I bought a 40-50y old Summicron 35mm f/2 as my first lens. My wife and I are now in Rapallo, Liguria, Italy on vacation and I had a lot of time to try out my new M and get used to it and bring it to its limits (and mine, of course).

We were sitting in a nice Enoteca in Rapallo and I was able to do some fishing in great light. I set the camera to ISO 160 and inadvertently set it to auto SS. I wasn't aware that the light was already fading and SS turned out to be 1/13s.

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I was extremely pleased to see that 1/13s is not an issue with this camera at all. I later took a few shots at 1/15s and most of them turned out as sharp as hoped for. 

Maybe not the 1/8s (I'll certainly try that in the future) but much better than anticipated. I really love the M10M and I had no clue what the Monochrom sensor is capable of. I also use the Visoflex 020 in some cases and find it extremely hard to focus. Focus peaking is only useful if set to f/4 or wider open. The rangefinder on the other hand is always spot on (of course). However, I mainly use zone focusing with f/8 or f/11 on the streets. Pre-focus with the range finder and then take the pictures.

I cannot say how happy I am with this camera. I wish I would have been able to acquire a 24mm lens. But that did not work out.

[Alexander108]

THE Q3 WILL GO

After shooting more and more with my M10M, I came to the conclusion that the Q3 is a great camera but I will sell it as well as my Canon R5 plus lens to get a preowned M11 + Visoflex 2. I acquired quite a few lenses for my M10M: 15mm Voigtländer 4.5, 24mm Elmarit 2.8, 35mm Summicron, 50mm Summicron, and 90mm Leica 90mm f/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH. The 90mm is on its way from MBP. These preowned lenses cost me in total less than 25% of the new lenses. OK. Some of my lenses are 50y old. But they are in excellent condition. 

So, the conclusion is: Yes. The M is a great camera in low light (especially the Monochrom). Of course it is lacking the stabilizer and that obviously limits your slower shutter speeds.

I wonder if a monopod is the solution? I don't thinks so as it still allows for some motion. Any experiences? Thank you!

[Derbyshire Man]

I hope I’m not patronising you but even bracing yourself with the camera against a tree/wall/lamp post or similar can make a huge difference. All without the need to carry something else!

[Alexander108]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Derbyshire Man:

I hope I’m not patronising you but even bracing yourself with the camera against a tree/wall/lamp post or similar can make a huge difference. All without the need to carry something else!

You're right. When there is a wall or tree this is (kind of) easy. If you want to take a picture in the middle of an alley it can get tricky. In this case, however, there was no need for motion blur.

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