Considering a Monochrom Body - Looking for advice

[tegel]

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On 9/2/2025 at 3:50 AM, Alexander108 said:

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Although I am a bit late to the party, I'd like to share my experiences as well. This forum helped me a lot making up my mind and maybe someone else can use this opinion.

Never too late. Thanks for chiming in!

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My shooting in Italy taught me that I desperately need a 24mm lens.

I’m curious why you feel the need for a 24mm. I assume it’s for wider, more architectural and land/city scapes as opposed to street? At least that’s how I use 24mm on my Nikons. I had a 28 Elmarit, but decided to return it and stick with my 35/2, with the idea of maybe getting a 24mm (or 21mm) someday. I’m interested in how you would use a 24. I know Alan Schaller uses a 24 Lux, but he seems to be unique in that regard. He’s also one of my favs.

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BTW both pictures were shot with zone focusing. The lower photo is one of 15 images I took in this crowded street until this happened. Perfect light, only one person, extremely long shadow. 10min later the light was gone.

I like both photos, especially the second one. Again, 35mm seems plenty wide to me for that type of shooting.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences and images!
 

Edited September 3 by tegel

[Alexander108]

Thank you.

I am too a big fan of Alan Schaller. Amazing photography 

I started working with the Q3 1.5y ago and even find the 28mm to narrow. The 35mm is not my focal length. It was just not wide enough in the narrow alleys of Liguria. I just ordered an Elmarit 24/2.8. I am going to visit Barcelona in November (conference and then a few days off) and very much looking forward to the 24mm. I also often used the 24mm on my Canon R5. Just perfect for me. 

[costa43]

That Photons to Photos chart is accurate. The M11M is technically the strongest, then the M10M, then the M246 and then the M9M.

My favourite is the M9M though, go figure. Welcome to Leica Land.

Edited September 3 by costa43

[Luke_Miller]

16 hours ago, costa43 said:

My favourite is the M9M though, go figure. Welcome to Leica Land.

Mine too.

[rcusick]

I love my m246.  Pretty close to m10m and m11m. 

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting.pdf

Edited September 4 by rcusick

[tegel]

After using the M10m for a few months, I’m still trying to decide if I like it enough to keep it. I certainly like the small size of body/lens combo which means I’m more likely to have it with me. I do find that sometimes I miss not having the option of color (more than I thought I would). My initial thought was that I would just bring my iPhone along for color, but I find that I really do not enjoy photographing with a phone. I thought about picking up another M body, but I have no shortage of Nikons I can use for color, so that seemed unnecessary.

I also struggle with a few things when using the M10m. I like to shoot high contrast scenes and use the rear wheel for exposure compensation, but I don’t like having to look through the viewfinder or using live view to see the setting. I usually set it to -1 and then count the clicks, but I eventually lose track. I also miss not having the live histogram in the VF for these type of scenes (I don’t like using live view, as it’s too much like using a phone camera).  Another thing I struggle with is shooting with the M in portrait mode. It seems the M is designed to be oriented with the viewfinder on top and the shutter on the bottom as this also puts the focusing tab on the bottom. I find this a bit difficult to hold the camera steady due to having to contort my wrist to get it level. Holding it the other way (with my hand over the top) is more stable, but then I find my self struggling to reach the tab without blocking the VF. Maybe I just need more time with it. As for the files, I find them to be excellent, but I also find my Zf monochrome files to be excellent. 

I’ve been forcing myself to use the M10m almost exclusively since purchasing it to try to get used to it and besides the points mentioned above, I’ve been enjoying using it. The other day I decided to go out with my Zf and Voigtlander 28mm Z mount lens for the first time in a while, and found myself enjoying the experience so much more. It’s difficult to determine if I prefer the Zf just because I’m more familiar with it, but there a certianly a few functional things that seem better to me. The external EV comp dial is a real benefit, which allows me to see all of the settings without bringing the camera to my eye. I also prefer the MF assist options of the Zf (eye detect, green box confirmation) over the RF focusing. Again, familarity might be contributing to bias here. Depending on the scene, I typically shoot in A and M modes with Auto ISO. On both cameras I have min shutter speed at 1/500 for A mode the switch to M when I want a slower shutter speed. I find the PSAM switch on the Zf makes it faster to switch between A and M. As for the size/weight, the M is a bit lighter and smaller, but surprisingly the Zf + Nikon Z40/2 AF lens is actually lighter than the M10m + 35 Summicron negating at least some of the advantage of the M. 

I’m not giving up on the M10m. One of my main reasons for purchasing it was because I like to shoot B&W during the day in harsh light while chasing light/shadows. Having the M10m as a lightweight all-day carry ceratnly appeals to me. Hopefully, I can overcome some of my struggles and become more proficient with it. I’m actrually looking forward the the winter when the colors have disappeared 🙂

[mpauliks]

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb tegel:

"but I also find my Zf monochrome files to be excellent. "

 

That is the key sentence IMO. You have much more options and same or superior quality when converting color to monochrome. E.g. you can add a filter effects afterwards when using a color sensor. Like written above already check out the offerings from Cobalt for emulating a Leica monochrom sensor. Myself is happy with my Leica 246, but today I would never ever buy a monochrom only cam again.

[IkarusJohn]

13 hours ago, tegel said:

After using the M10m for a few months, I’m still trying to decide if I like it enough to keep it. I certainly like the small size of body/lens combo which means I’m more likely to have it with me. I do find that sometimes I miss not having the option of color (more than I thought I would). My initial thought was that I would just bring my iPhone along for color, but I find that I really do not enjoy photographing with a phone. I thought about picking up another M body, but I have no shortage of Nikons I can use for color, so that seemed unnecessary.

I also struggle with a few things when using the M10m. I like to shoot high contrast scenes and use the rear wheel for exposure compensation, but I don’t like having to look through the viewfinder or using live view to see the setting. I usually set it to -1 and then count the clicks, but I eventually lose track. I also miss not having the live histogram in the VF for these type of scenes (I don’t like using live view, as it’s too much like using a phone camera).  Another thing I struggle with is shooting with the M in portrait mode. It seems the M is designed to be oriented with the viewfinder on top and the shutter on the bottom as this also puts the focusing tab on the bottom. I find this a bit difficult to hold the camera steady due to having to contort my wrist to get it level. Holding it the other way (with my hand over the top) is more stable, but then I find my self struggling to reach the tab without blocking the VF. Maybe I just need more time with it. As for the files, I find them to be excellent, but I also find my Zf monochrome files to be excellent. 

I’ve been forcing myself to use the M10m almost exclusively since purchasing it to try to get used to it and besides the points mentioned above, I’ve been enjoying using it. The other day I decided to go out with my Zf and Voigtlander 28mm Z mount lens for the first time in a while, and found myself enjoying the experience so much more. It’s difficult to determine if I prefer the Zf just because I’m more familiar with it, but there a certianly a few functional things that seem better to me. The external EV comp dial is a real benefit, which allows me to see all of the settings without bringing the camera to my eye. I also prefer the MF assist options of the Zf (eye detect, green box confirmation) over the RF focusing. Again, familarity might be contributing to bias here. Depending on the scene, I typically shoot in A and M modes with Auto ISO. On both cameras I have min shutter speed at 1/500 for A mode the switch to M when I want a slower shutter speed. I find the PSAM switch on the Zf makes it faster to switch between A and M. As for the size/weight, the M is a bit lighter and smaller, but surprisingly the Zf + Nikon Z40/2 AF lens is actually lighter than the M10m + 35 Summicron negating at least some of the advantage of the M. 

I’m not giving up on the M10m. One of my main reasons for purchasing it was because I like to shoot B&W during the day in harsh light while chasing light/shadows. Having the M10m as a lightweight all-day carry ceratnly appeals to me. Hopefully, I can overcome some of my struggles and become more proficient with it. I’m actrually looking forward the the winter when the colors have disappeared 🙂

The M Monochrom isn’t compulsory!  If you prefer the Zf, go for it.  I’ve found that anything that gets in the way between me, what I visualise and the end result gets the flick in quite short order.

For myself, I have the M9 based Monochrom - CCD sensor, no live view, raw histogram (I think the only Monochrom to do this), and nothing superfluous.  I set it to Auto-ISO, everything else manual.  I love it. Yes, I could convert colour files, but doing that with my M9 files and my M10 files doesn’t even come close.  Yes, I need to carry filters of the right size for the lens I’m using, and it has less options, but then that’s what I like - doing as much as I can before I press the shutter.

Fiddling about with a computer isn’t photography for me.

[PhotoCruiser]

There are basically two groups of photographers,
some like me transitioned from B/W film and darkroom to digital and Lightroom (other editing programs),
others stay with the way they photograph and perfect their use of the given camera, particularly monochrome ones.

However, both is perfectly fine and is part of photography as in both cases a photo is the beginning and there is not a big difference of editing photos on a computer or in a darkroom. Computer editing is certainly more comfortable than doing same in a darkroom, but the darkroom has his magic when watching the photo appear.

Well then there is the third group who (claims) that their photos are as they wanted it and no additional editing in whatever form is needed or was used.

I work all my adult life with computers and for many many years editing, composing, computer grafics, etc and i enjoy it, same as i enjoyed working in the darkroom blowing up my B/W photos.

vor 20 Stunden schrieb mpauliks:

That is the key sentence IMO. You have much more options and same or superior quality when converting color to monochrome. E.g. you can add a filter effects afterwards when using a color sensor. Like written above already check out the offerings from Cobalt for emulating a Leica monochrom sensor. Myself is happy with my Leica 246, but today I would never ever buy a monochrom only cam again.

Jep!
I will not consider a monochrome only camera as i love colours even if i shot for many years almost only B/W film but now i prefer and do 95% colour photography, and if i want a photo in monochrome i use the convert tools i have and there are much more filters ans specialized software providing much better monochrome results from colour photos.

Chris

[Luke_Miller]

23 hours ago, tegel said:

 ..... I do find that sometimes I miss not having the option of color (more than I thought I would).

.....  Another thing I struggle with is shooting with the M in portrait mode. I

I find that not all subjects are best captured in B&W, just as some subects demand color capture.  So I Have the M246/M240 combo and use the one the subject demands.  I don't normally carry both, but plan my shooting around the subject matter.

I find it very difficul to use the rangefinder with the camera in the vertical orientation (I prefer the shutter button up). With static subjects I focus with the camera horizontal and then rotate to compose and shoot.

[Jeff S]

11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

…raw histogram (I think the only Monochrom to do this)..

 

 

The only Leica camera, M or otherwise AFAIK. The only camera I’m aware of besides the MM to use a RAW histogram is Phase One.

[tegel]

4 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

I find that not all subjects are best captured in B&W, just as some subects demand color capture.  So I Have the M246/M240 combo and use the one the subject demands.  I don't normally carry both, but plan my shooting around the subject matter.

If I decide to stick with the M, I could see myself adding one of the M10 models. I'm a long way from making that kind of commitment.

5 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

I find it very difficul to use the rangefinder with the camera in the vertical orientation (I prefer the shutter button up). With static subjects I focus with the camera horizontal and then rotate to compose and shoot.

Thanks for the tip!  Not sure why I didn't think of this. I guess I'm used to composing first, focusing second with AF lenses. Will definitely try this next time out.

[ramarren]

I guess I've been shooting with Leica M cameras long enough (since 1972 or so) that I don't even remember having difficulty with the orientation of the camera and focusing. (um ... You don't have to use the focusing tab, you can just grab the focusing ring and turn it. ...) 

I did see how someone unfamiliar with using an M can get a bit boffled up with it just the other day... I handed my M10-M to an old friend (and retired professional photographer) at lunch and watched her struggle with focusing and framing. She's been using SLRs and mirrorless cameras with TTL focusing/framing and autofocus for two or more decades ... a manual focus camera with a rangefinder is a novelty for someone like that, they have no experience understanding it in use. 

I use all sorts of cameras, but i've used Leica Ms through most of my adult life. To me, they work without conscious thought ... I just focus, frame, set exposure, make an exposure. Whether I have the camera held horizontally or turned vertically in either direction ... my hands, my fingers, know what to do with it. So just give it a little time, try not to think about it so hard, practice and use it. It'll come to you.

G

[Alexander108]

Am 10.10.2025 um 16:15 schrieb tegel:

After using the M10m for a few months, I’m still trying to decide if I like it enough to keep it. I certainly like the small size of body/lens combo which means I’m more likely to have it with me. I do find that sometimes I miss not having the option of color (more than I thought I would). My initial thought was that I would just bring my iPhone along for color, but I find that I really do not enjoy photographing with a phone. I thought about picking up another M body, but I have no shortage of Nikons I can use for color, so that seemed unnecessary.

I also struggle with a few things when using the M10m. I like to shoot high contrast scenes and use the rear wheel for exposure compensation, but I don’t like having to look through the viewfinder or using live view to see the setting. I usually set it to -1 and then count the clicks, but I eventually lose track. I also miss not having the live histogram in the VF for these type of scenes (I don’t like using live view, as it’s too much like using a phone camera).  Another thing I struggle with is shooting with the M in portrait mode. It seems the M is designed to be oriented with the viewfinder on top and the shutter on the bottom as this also puts the focusing tab on the bottom. I find this a bit difficult to hold the camera steady due to having to contort my wrist to get it level. Holding it the other way (with my hand over the top) is more stable, but then I find my self struggling to reach the tab without blocking the VF. Maybe I just need more time with it. As for the files, I find them to be excellent, but I also find my Zf monochrome files to be excellent. 

I’ve been forcing myself to use the M10m almost exclusively since purchasing it to try to get used to it and besides the points mentioned above, I’ve been enjoying using it. The other day I decided to go out with my Zf and Voigtlander 28mm Z mount lens for the first time in a while, and found myself enjoying the experience so much more. It’s difficult to determine if I prefer the Zf just because I’m more familiar with it, but there a certianly a few functional things that seem better to me. The external EV comp dial is a real benefit, which allows me to see all of the settings without bringing the camera to my eye. I also prefer the MF assist options of the Zf (eye detect, green box confirmation) over the RF focusing. Again, familarity might be contributing to bias here. Depending on the scene, I typically shoot in A and M modes with Auto ISO. On both cameras I have min shutter speed at 1/500 for A mode the switch to M when I want a slower shutter speed. I find the PSAM switch on the Zf makes it faster to switch between A and M. As for the size/weight, the M is a bit lighter and smaller, but surprisingly the Zf + Nikon Z40/2 AF lens is actually lighter than the M10m + 35 Summicron negating at least some of the advantage of the M. 

I’m not giving up on the M10m. One of my main reasons for purchasing it was because I like to shoot B&W during the day in harsh light while chasing light/shadows. Having the M10m as a lightweight all-day carry ceratnly appeals to me. Hopefully, I can overcome some of my struggles and become more proficient with it. I’m actrually looking forward the the winter when the colors have disappeared 🙂

I understand many of your concerns. Two weeks ago I traded my beloved Q3 for an M11 as I also like color photography. In the past 90% of my Q3 pictures were converted to B&W. Every time I edit the DNGs of my M10M I am amazed by the quality. During a Hamburg weekend I took both, the M11 and the M10M. 

I also bought the Visoflex 2 for the M11 (preowned). I made an interesting experience. Whenever the Visoflex is mounted, I use it. This is exactly to your point: I want to see the histogram, and I always get the blinking highlight areas. Compensate with EV is an easy one. As I shoot >50% of my images with the 24mm lens it is also convenient to see what will be in the frame. Especially if you are framing precisely. Otherwise you'd have to go with live view which to me is not a great option (not a phone photographer at all).

As I started with the M system only a few weeks ago, I now have to unlearn certain habits. Once you are confident with exposure (-1 EV is no problem on the Monochrom) the lacking histogram is not an issue. I also look at the pics after the shot with capture assistants turned on, I see immediately if it was (heavily) overexposed. Very dark pictures aren't a problem on the Monochrom. So I see myself using the rangefinder more and more and use the EVF less and less. Exception: my wonderful Voigtlander 15mm lens that requires either live view or an EVF to frame properly.

This one of the old "Elbtunnel" was taken with the Voigtländer 15mm, 1/60s, ISO 20000.

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I hear a lot of people stating that you can always convert a color photo into a B&W. This is certainly true for proper light situations. But not for low light like in this tunnel.

This one was taken with the M11 and my 35mm lens, ISO 6400, 1/40s (not really comparable):

But from a technical perspective (pixel peeping) it is not even close to the M10M picture with ISO 20000. This cannot be clearly seen at this resolution but certainly when blown up to 40x30cm. And for sure there is some motion blur involved.

BTW I only bought the M11 because the price was almost on par with an M10-R. With the user experience of the M11 I'd rather have an M11M now. But I already broke the bank, jeopardized my marriage and cannot afford moving further in this direction. In Germany our administration now works with "Sondervermögen" (Google translates that to "special assets") which is an euphemism for, well, debt. I tried to convince my wife: I saved almost 10,000 EUR buying preowned lenses. Now I can afford the M11! Well, she wasn't convinced . But that's another story. 

[tegel]

5 hours ago, Alexander108 said:

I hear a lot of people stating that you can always convert a color photo into a B&W. This is certainly true for proper light situations. But not for low light like in this tunnel

Thanks for sharing these photos. I’m still trying to figure out how important the extra high ISO capability of the M10m is to me. I agree the files are amazing, but I need to decide if it’s worth having an $8k camera/lens combo just for these situations. The Zf seems to be about only 1 stop worse than the M10m (I assume that is due to the 24MP sensor?) and maybe good enough for me?  I probably need to use both cameras in more situations like this to make this determination. I’m not one to pixel peep or to do highly technical tests. For me its more about the overall look and are the files good enough to work with in PP. 

Speaking of PP, I do like the simplified workflow (no color channels) when working with the M10m files. One intersting thing I discovered about the Nikon Zf is when I use a B&W profile in camera and bring it into LR, it brings in the RAW file with the B&W profile automatically applied. This also means the color channels are not available (unless I switch to one of the Adobe Monochrome settings). Also, If I want to use color “filters”, I have to select those in camera before shooting (again, unless I switch to Abobe monochrome in LR). So, it’s kind of like using a camera with a monochrome sensor and editing an M Monochrom file. More to experiment with. 

[mpauliks]

 

vor 22 Minuten schrieb tegel:

I’m still trying to figure out how important the extra high ISO capability of the M10m is to me.

Take a look on the lab results. When comparing M11 to M11M the monochrom seems to win by ca. 1 EV for Dynamic Range. Which is important for low light. Check out e.g. https://www.photonstophotos.net/

 

Also I recommend (again) to read the links from Cobalt about emulating the monochrom Leicas: https://www.cobalt-image.com/shop/digital-emulation-adobe/?v=5f02f0889301

[250swb]

45 minutes ago, tegel said:

 

Speaking of PP, I do like the simplified workflow (no color channels) when working with the M10m files. One intersting thing I discovered about the Nikon Zf is when I use a B&W profile in camera and bring it into LR, it brings in the RAW file with the B&W profile automatically applied. This also means the color channels are not available (unless I switch to one of the Adobe Monochrome settings). Also, If I want to use color “filters”, I have to select those in camera before shooting (again, unless I switch to Abobe monochrome in LR). So, it’s kind of like using a camera with a monochrome sensor and editing an M Monochrom file. More to experiment with. 

Well if there's a way to make things complicated you've nailed it.

There's a lot of better software available to convert a colour file to B&W than camera firmware or ACR. I use Nik Collection Silver Efex, and all you do is open your colour image into the Lightroom or Photoshop plugin Silver Efex. The colour photo is opened as a B&W file but it uses the colour channels, so I can apply lens filters such as a red filter to darken blue sky like you would with a film camera, add tints, dodge and burn, and do everything that's normal to edit an image or print it in a darkroom. Or I can keep it simple and apply one of the many presets available (or use them as a jumping off point to do your own adjustments), or just tweak the brightness and contrast and leave it at that. And all without needing to change any settings in the camera, you just make the same type of colour photograph you like.

You don't need see the image in the camera in B&W using a dedicated camera or a menu setting, a far more powerful tool is to use the imagination, something photographers have used since the dawn of photography when making B&W photographs. Sat in front of your PC you aren't then stifled by the way the camera rendered the image, your imagination can become dominant. And don't forget, you only need to convert the goods ones to B&W, not all of them.

 

[mpauliks]

Here some examples. I compare 246 to SL3-S using the Cobalt emulation. Export from DNG to jpg. For the SL3-S images just on click on 246 emulation. Tripod, same Exif, same lens (Rigid).

Here 246 first:

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[mpauliks]

Here SL3-S converted. No further processing.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[BWColor]

On 10/10/2025 at 9:15 AM, tegel said:

After using the M10m for a few months, I’m still trying to decide if I like it enough to keep it. I certainly like the small size of body/lens combo which means I’m more likely to have it with me. I do find that sometimes I miss not having the option of color (more than I thought I would). My initial thought was that I would just bring my iPhone along for color, but I find that I really do not enjoy photographing with a phone. I thought about picking up another M body, but I have no shortage of Nikons I can use for color, so that seemed unnecessary.

I also struggle with a few things when using the M10m. I like to shoot high contrast scenes and use the rear wheel for exposure compensation, but I don’t like having to look through the viewfinder or using live view to see the setting. I usually set it to -1 and then count the clicks, but I eventually lose track. I also miss not having the live histogram in the VF for these type of scenes (I don’t like using live view, as it’s too much like using a phone camera).  Another thing I struggle with is shooting with the M in portrait mode. It seems the M is designed to be oriented with the viewfinder on top and the shutter on the bottom as this also puts the focusing tab on the bottom. I find this a bit difficult to hold the camera steady due to having to contort my wrist to get it level. Holding it the other way (with my hand over the top) is more stable, but then I find my self struggling to reach the tab without blocking the VF. Maybe I just need more time with it. As for the files, I find them to be excellent, but I also find my Zf monochrome files to be excellent. 

I’ve been forcing myself to use the M10m almost exclusively since purchasing it to try to get used to it and besides the points mentioned above, I’ve been enjoying using it. The other day I decided to go out with my Zf and Voigtlander 28mm Z mount lens for the first time in a while, and found myself enjoying the experience so much more. It’s difficult to determine if I prefer the Zf just because I’m more familiar with it, but there a certianly a few functional things that seem better to me. The external EV comp dial is a real benefit, which allows me to see all of the settings without bringing the camera to my eye. I also prefer the MF assist options of the Zf (eye detect, green box confirmation) over the RF focusing. Again, familarity might be contributing to bias here. Depending on the scene, I typically shoot in A and M modes with Auto ISO. On both cameras I have min shutter speed at 1/500 for A mode the switch to M when I want a slower shutter speed. I find the PSAM switch on the Zf makes it faster to switch between A and M. As for the size/weight, the M is a bit lighter and smaller, but surprisingly the Zf + Nikon Z40/2 AF lens is actually lighter than the M10m + 35 Summicron negating at least some of the advantage of the M. 

I’m not giving up on the M10m. One of my main reasons for purchasing it was because I like to shoot B&W during the day in harsh light while chasing light/shadows. Having the M10m as a lightweight all-day carry ceratnly appeals to me. Hopefully, I can overcome some of my struggles and become more proficient with it. I’m actrually looking forward the the winter when the colors have disappeared 🙂

It sounds like you have approached this in the best possible way.  It might sound self defeating, but for me, shooting an M Monochrom camera and in some ways, any Leica, is a matter of enjoying/appreciating limitations.  Up front, you are focal length limited,  Next, you must work around the rangefinder limitations, such as focusing and re-framing.  Also, there has to be some appreciation of the simplicity of the Leica menu system.  Regarding the limitations of shooting only monochrome images, this means you miss those images that are made by the color palette.  I always shoot with my M11M paired with a color camera, but I never shoot both on the same day.  I shouldn’t say never, if the Monsoon comes mid day and I have my more water resistant ‘color’ camera in the backpack I’ll swap cameras.  Inclement weather is also another downside of the system.  Self imposed limits that force me to make the most of what i have in hand.  In this spirit, I don’t convert color images.   I hope that you have taken advantage of yellow and orange (red) filters.  I also prefer not to monitor my progress by chimping.   So, when I see a scene, I see it totally and with respect to lighting and composition.  This keys me into how to meter/compensate.  I’ve been known to use an external meter.  So, regardless of how you look at it, shooting a Leica M10M is appreciating the limitations of the camera and appreciating the improving nature of the end product..hopefully a print.  In the end, I have all the equipment and technical knowledge and only lack creativity, but I’m working on it.