From M10 to M11: am I overthinking the shutter lag? or the bump in picture quality?

[Stuart Richardson]

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I will add that as someone someone who has been following Leica for 25 years and had digital Leicas since before the M8, the most cost efficient way to buy a digital Leica is to buy a clean used model of the just replaced flagship. So wait until the newest greatest main line number change is announced and then buy a clean used version of the last before it. In the case of the M11, buy a clean used M11P or demo a few months after the announcement of the M12. You will still be paying a decent amount, but the price will be quite a bit lower than it was new, as well as lower than the current model. It is likely to retain a signification proportion of that value for awhile. To give you an idea...the M11M was announced in April 2023 for 9200 USD. I bought an M10M in Sept. 2023 for 5200 in essentially new condition. There were at least four or five available at Camera West. Right now, there are none that I can find online in the US stores (I am sure they are around somewhere). On ebay they now seem to be 6200 or more. It seems like right after the first depreciation hit and the period where the market is being flooded with people changing for the new model is the best time to buy. If you want to buy new, it is generally best to buy it as soon as it comes out, as with Leica they only seem to go up in price. They are often announced in the autumn and Leica always does price increases in the early part of the new year, so the new model can go up in price a few hundred dollars even within a few months. 

[Stuart Richardson]

17 minutes ago, Smogg said:

That's assuming the M12 is reliable right from the start...

I don't think that matters for most buyers. Maybe for people here on the forum. But I think a lot of people just buy it with the automatic assumption that the quality will be high and it will work. That is why we see so many posts from people who are like "I bought the new X and it doesn't do this right!". I think many people buy first and find out the problems only after they happen to them. 

[jaapv]

The main error is that people assume that money buys reliability. What would you buy for a reliable car? A Maserati or a Toyota? 

[Jeff S]

42 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think that matters for most buyers. Maybe for people here on the forum. But I think a lot of people just buy it with the automatic assumption that the quality will be high and it will work. That is why we see so many posts from people who are like "I bought the new X and it doesn't do this right!". I think many people buy first and find out the problems only after they happen to them. 

I haven’t been an early adopter (aka customer beta tester) on any digital Leica camera, preferring to wait through ‘teething’ issues, which every digital M has had. Being a forum member since 2009, I’ve seen the scenario repeat again and again.  Seems many here don’t remember, for instance, the bashing the M9 took, long before the corrosion issue… bad colors, red edge, cracked sensors, SD card compatibility issues, freeze problems, buffer issues, and more.  Now it’s like a cult camera. Fortunately I’ve had close to zero reliability issues, coincidentally or not, from the M8.2 to the M10-R/M.  This has been worth any minor price increase I might have encountered, which has sometimes been offset by appreciation in the used market (my M9M, bought mint used, is worth more now, and my M10-R BP is also worth more than I paid).

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes. I went to Photo Plus in NY the year the M8 was introduced and they had models there to test. It was in the Javitz Center I think, but some big place with metal halide lights at the time, I believe. I got my hands on the M8 at the Leica table and turned around and took a photo of the guy next to me, who had a black synthetic jacket. The jacket was completely purple. I showed it to the guy and was like "is this normal?" And he said that it was early firmware and they were still tuning the WB etc. I just trusted them and got one when it came out as I was so excitedly waiting for one. And of course, it was plagued by IR issues the likes of which make the M11 seem quaint. It was really rough in color until they gave everyone UV/IR filters. I am still baffled how that got out of Germany with anyone thinking it would be ok. Leica will occasionally launch something without a hitch, but it seems to be luck of the draw. Generally the P models are a better choice I think, if you can wait and are willing to pay a premium for an older product. 

[Jeff S]

I skipped the M8 and waited for the M8.2.  Zero problems with two of them. Then skipped the M9, buying the M9M used on a body just back from Wetzlar following full service, new sensor and additional warranty.  Got the M240 new, but more than a year from launch.  And so on.  I’m happy to let others sort issues. 

[jaapv]

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I bought one of the very first M8 in 2006, two weeks before the launch. That evening I took a flash photograph of my wife in a black dress holding a black cat. The next morning I drove to my dealer and got a few IR cut filters - it was that evident. I cannot imagine how they missed it as the effect was well known from the Nikon D70 and Epson RD1. 

[pgh]

Ahh those free filters, I remember them! My m8 purchase was a little later, but I got it at a student discount when they did that sort of thing! No more, of course. In hindsight they must have really needed to move units for such a program to exist. I ended up selling my m8 maybe 2 or 3 years later for more than I paid new.
 

The wild thing was I think I bought my m8 new in ‘08 or even ‘09, and it didn’t even come with a the filters. I was so excited to leave my massive feeling d200 at home I forgave it but it was wild how years later it wasn’t sorted but with the filters you still had to request from the mothership. 
 

anyways, I agree with Stuart’s strategy - aside from new m10 in 2017 I’ve done this same thing. My first m10 mono was 5400 the 2nd was 4800 and less used than the first. Bought one in early ‘23 right before m11M announcement and 2nd one late 23 after release. Skipping the m11s though, honestly probably m12s too. I am set up perfectly. 

Edited June 29 by pgh

[charlesphoto99]

OP doesn't say what lenses he has. Unless one truly needs those extra megapixels all the time, they can honestly be had for $100 with Topaz Gigapixel AI when one needs them to print big. I would always value a different lens purchase over a similar body upgrade. 

If I hadn't been totally smitten with the M10-R black paint when it came out, I would probably still be happily shooting the M10 I got the month of its release, along with my M10M. M9 is my favorite 'look' but operationally the M9 just doesn't cut it for me once using the 10/10-R. In some ways, the M9 was the most 'pure,' even more so than contemporary D models, in that one only had about three to four stops of iso to work with, and one had to shoot and meter like it was slide film. But I digress..

[DadDadDaddyo]

Lenses always outlive bodies, at least in this digital age. Indeed one of the enduring charms of the Leica world is the backlog of lenses from all the long periods of history that it makes readily available for use. In this, the Leica world is matched only by the view camera world. 

Recognizing the differing views about the M11 sensor and its pixel size and density, for my own stuff, I've found plenty of reason to welcome both its resolution and its flexibility. The matter of pixel binning is familiar in the realm of astrophotography, into which I've invested both time and treasure. There, as with still photography, the 'lenses' outlive the 'bodies, ' though in the case of astrophotography, these are bodies with highly specialized characteristics, including not only binning, but actively chilled sensors. I've recently upgraded from a ZWO ASI1600MC to an ASI2600MC, increasing both sensor size and resolution. 

But even there, as with Leicas, in terms of influence on the quality of the outcome,  knowledgeable use of the equipment vastly outweighs technical specifications, once one has gone beyond the basics. 

There's much to be said for being willing to lag a bit behind the cutting edge, especially in terms of acquisition costs, but also in terms of access to the accumulated experience of the community. There one may find deep and useful understanding and with time, it becomes easier to distinguish what's most useful for you and your own work.

Above all else, Enjoy! We live in an age of wonders... 

[elmars]

In my review about the M11

I wrote this about shutter operation:

But Leica has speeded up the process, so the speed and reactivity of the M11 is as good as the M10 in classic mode. But the shutter has to do a more complex operation (close shutter, exposition with opening and closing the shutter, open shutter again), which makes a different shutter sound.

[Henners]

If you love the images from the M10 then stick with it, it's a fantastic M and possibly (in my opinion of course) the best M. I own an M11 and came from an M10-R. There's pros and cons of both. I love the USB-C on the M11 but I love the M10 for it feeling slightly more like what I expect a Leica to feel like. Would I switch back to the M10, no - because I do like the slightly more modern features and it would be a hassle. If I had the M10-R again would I 'upgrade' to an M11... mmmmm, probably not, I'd wait for the M12 to see what that brings.

Main M11 pros for me are the USB-C (including charging from a battery bank etc), ISO64, better battery life.

Main M10 pros for me are it feeling more Leica like with the metering, it just felt that little bit more responsive and I felt more 'at one' with it. Only marginally.

For me they sit side by side I guess, with pros and cons of both. I switch between photos from my M10 and M11 and I can't say that one sensor is better than the other, if anything I think I kind of prefer the M10 but that could just be due to the photos I took at that time. If you're doing commercial work and pixel peeping then there may be a better argument for an M11 but for travel and every day photography I don't see much of an argument personally.

There's no right answer, they're both the right answer.  

Edited June 29 by Henners

[thrid]

On 6/28/2025 at 7:17 AM, Jan_t said:

I've had my M10 since it was released and I'm thinking about upgrading to 2nd hand M11 (there are some nice deals around nowadays). Main reasons would be: 1) newer & better sensor 2) USB-C for charging 3) will hold value longer compared to the M10 (making it easier to upgrade to the MXX in the future).

I've been reading reviews and I noticed many folks mention the new metering using the sensor (instead of a dedicated sensor like the M10). The result seems to be that the M11 acts like it's in live view all the time. On my M10 I noticed that there is delay between pressing the shutter button & taking the picture when the camera is in live view. Is the delay as noticable on the M11? For the folks that had an M10: does it annoy you?

Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

Here are some observations from someone who 'upgraded' from the M10 to the M11.

Obviously you can take great pictures with the M10. That's an issue of talent, not necessarily the camera. 

Yes, the M11 has some improvements, but that doesn't suddenly make the M10 a paper weight.
As nice as the improvements are on the M11, there is a thing or two about the M10 that I prefer. 

- The M11 is far less prone to clip highlights than the M10. I would be hard pressed to find an M11 image where I clipped the whites, but I had to be careful with the M10.
There is a noticeable improvement in overall dynamic range, maybe as much as 2 stops. I think the M11 is rated at a useable 14 stops, which is about as good as it gets for mainstream cameras. Overall there is no doubt that the M11 sensor is more advanced and I'm not just talking about resolution.

That said the differences in IQ between the M10-R and M11 appear to be less pronounced.

I'm more concerned with dynamic range than megapixels, so the jump to 60MP wasn't a big selling point for me. Generally I avoid cropping as much as possible, but obviously the extra resolution does come in handy if you have to. I do appreciate the extra resolution for my day job, where this actually is a factor. Personally, 40-45MP is the sweet spot for me for the vast majority of my shooting, but I still shoot two 24MP cameras and the results are perfectly fine.

Overall, the image quality of the M11 is so good that it feels like we've reached a plateau, where further improvements are subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Aside from the sensor one of the biggest difference between the M10 and M11 is the metering system. The M10 uses the classic M6 style 'meter-off-a-gray-patch-on-the-shutter' system, whereas the M11 has a modern matrix metering system right off the sensor, with features like highlight weighted metering etc. This results in a massive improvement in exposure accuracy. The old system in the M10 was far more accurate than it should have been, but it was easily fooled by large dark or bright areas. This not the case with the M11 metering system, which is excellent and in my experience extremely accurate. That said the M11 metering system comes at a price..., namely the unusual shutter cycle.

- The 'worst' thing I can say about the M11 is the open-closed-open-closed-open shutter cycle necessitated to facilitate matrix metering off the sensor.
The decisive 'snick!' of previous M cameras has been replaced by a less punctuated shutter shuffle that takes some time to get used to. In terms of measurements the difference in shutter lag between the M10 and M11 is negligible.  

BUT,...

After two years of shooting with the M11 I discovered that the bigger problem is the feel of the shutter release, not solely the new extended length shutter cycle.

Generally speaking I feel this has been a problem on all digital M bodies I have tried or owned over the years compared to the film bodies or even other digital cameras.

The shutter release on the old film bodies was extremely crisp and there was a very distinct release point. They feel very much akin to the trigger release on a finely tuned firearm.

My M10 shutter release wasn't as crisp as my film bodies. There was more dead space and it felt a little spongy, but the sound of the traditional shutter cycle (closed-open-closed) helped make up for it.

In comparison to something like an M2/M4, the shutter release on the M11 feels more linear, with more dead-space before you hit resistance, a little spongy and the release point lacks the crispness of the film bodies.

I believe that combined with the extended shutter cycle of the M11, this lack of crispness in the shutter release point contributes to the sense of uncertainty about exactly when the picture is being taken. It seems that what a lot of people including myself are experiencing is not shutter lag per se, but a flaccid shutter release.

One way I convinced myself that things were not as bad I thought they were was to fire the camera while looking at the shutter being triggered. In doing so it is clearly evident that the picture really is being taken the instant the shutter is released and you are just being thrown by the extended cycle. Obviously we know that, but seeing it with your own eyes does seem to make a difference.

So, there is a lot of room for improvement in the feel of the M11 shutter release. You know we have a problem, when a Nikon D850 DSLR feels like it has a hair trigger compared to the M11...

Is it the end of the world? No, but given that I shoot street and documentary style work, where timing is almost everything it is supremely annoying and I feel that my hit rate has dropped. But, there is nothing I can do about this. If I want to continue to shoot with the M series I'll just have to grin and bear it and maybe Leica will improve this aspect on the M12.

That said it really is something you have to experience first hand, so you can decide if the new shutter cycle is going to be an issue for you.

- M11 battery life is better. I had 3 batteries for my M10 and on a heavy day would burn through two of them and make it home with some juice left in the 3rd.
With the M11 I have two batteries and usually one is enough for the day. USB charging is really convenient in particular the ability to recharge the batteries in your bag from a power bank while you shoot or travel.

- The original M10 didn't have a touch screen, but the M10-P and M10-R do. Obviously, the M11 has a touch screen. Personally I turn it off to avoid accidentally changing settings, but your milage may vary.

- My M10 was as reliable as a hockey puck. I really can't think of a single time it locked up or gave me trouble.
Some people have had issues with the M11 firmware. In the two years of owning my M11 I had one incident where it got confused and I had to pull the battery to reset the camera. For all I know that may have been caused by operator error. Other than that my M11 has been perfectly reliable.

- The M11 has the electronic shutter that can go up to 1/16,000th, but how many of us have ever even used that feature? The mechanical speed tops out at 1/4000th on both cameras.

- Working in LV seems more responsive on the M11. The new optional Viso EVF is a step up from its predecessor, but I'm not sure if it is compatible with the M10 series.
It's a really nice piece of kit and comes in handy, when framing accuracy is a priority.

- I do and don't miss the base plate on the M11. I like the tradition and charm of it, but its elimination did give us a bigger battery and improved weather resistance.

- As these cameras age the M11 will obviously be more future proof than the M10, but at the end of the day pretty much all digital camera are going to depreciate a substantial amount. I used to trade up every 6 years, just to retain enough equity to cover pretty much half the cost of upgrading to a new M model. 

Hope this helps.

[FarbSpieler]

On 6/28/2025 at 3:17 PM, Jan_t said:

... Also, will the picture quality be noticable better? I absolutely love my M10 pictures, but the sensor is of course 8 years old, so the M11 sensor is more recent so more capable?

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

I’ve used both, and honestly—don’t let the age of the M10 sensor fool you. It still produces beautiful, natural images with color that (to many of us) feels more organic than the M11’s. The M11 gives you more resolution and dynamic range (on paper), but in real-world use, it’s not always a visible upgrade—especially if you already love your M10 files.

The metering change on the M11 does make it feel like it’s in live view all the time, and yes, there’s a slight delay compared to the M10’s snappier shutter response. It’s subtle, but if you’re sensitive to shutter feel and timing, you might notice it.

USB-C and internal memory are convenient, for sure. But personally, I’d weigh that against the M11’s added complexity, the occasional firmware quirks, purple cast and the fact that the M10 is just… solid, refined, and very “M” in spirit.

If you’re happy with your M10, don’t feel pressured to upgrade. The M11 is more modern, but not necessarily more satisfying to live and shoot with.

I actually bought an M11 and ended up returning it.
I now shoot with both the M10 and M10-R—and between the two, I still much prefer the colors from the M10.

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, FarbSpieler said:

with color that (to many of us) feels more organic than the M11’s

The term "more organic" is too vague to convey any meaning.

4 hours ago, FarbSpieler said:

The M11 gives you more resolution and dynamic range (on paper), but in real-world use, it’s not always a visible upgrade—especially if you already love your M10 files.

I am seeing a difference at base ISO, mostly in high-contrast scenes where shadows need to be lifted. AI NR helps hide the difference, though.

4 hours ago, FarbSpieler said:

The metering change on the M11 does make it feel like it’s in live view all the time, and yes, there’s a slight delay compared to the M10’s snappier shutter response. It’s subtle, but if you’re sensitive to shutter feel and timing, you might notice it.

Sean Reid measured the difference to be 0.017sec. The more complex shutter operation of M11 may feel like there is more lag, but in practice, it cannot be noticed.

The M11 features an electronic shutter, enabling wide-open shooting in bright light without the need for an ND filter. Live view is significantly more usable in the M11, and the body is noticeably lighter.

[LPettigrew]

11 hours ago, SrMi said:

The term "more organic" is too vague to convey any meaning.

Fair point, but for many of us it’s shorthand for the way the M10 renders color: more pleasing, less clinical than the M11. Hard to quantify but easy to feel.

Yes, the M11 has more DR and may perform marginally better at base ISO in some situations. But for real-world shooting—not lab tests—the differences often aren’t worth the tradeoff in character, handling, or shutter response. I tried the M11 twice and ended up back with the M10. The images it takes just speak to me more.

[pgh]

33 minutes ago, LPettigrew said:

Fair point, but for many of us it’s shorthand for the way the M10 renders color: more pleasing, less clinical than the M11. Hard to quantify but easy to feel.

Yes, the M11 has more DR and may perform marginally better at base ISO in some situations. But for real-world shooting—not lab tests—the differences often aren’t worth the tradeoff in character, handling, or shutter response. I tried the M11 twice and ended up back with the M10. The images it takes just speak to me more.

This becomes even more apparent for me when printing and dealing with the more limited gamut of ink and paper. More DR can always help, but I find the practical benefit of it with the m11 when it comes to actual printing is really, really quite marginal. It depends on how you like your prints and of course many shoot for screens and that’s a bit different and I get it. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

On 6/28/2025 at 12:43 PM, Smogg said:

The delay on the M11 in liveview mode is roughly equivalent to half a step of a walking person. Therefore, you should press the shutter button at the wrong phase of the step to get a normal picture.

This has been exactly my experience as well. Once noticed, it's easy to deal with. 

Thing is, I've run into this before. I can't think of a non-analog camera I've used that didn't introduce some kind of delay.

Even in the film/ analog world, you frequently run into things like this. Any camera with a moving mirror, for example; after you press the shutter button the mirror has to move out of the way ("clack!"), and, unless you're using your lens wide open, the diaphragm has to close down to your selected aperture, all before the shutter can open. 

The analog Leicas were special in that they did not introduce these delays. From that perspective, there's something here one has to factor into one's shooting. 

But "having to factor something in" has been true of many digital systems, and certainly true of digital SLRs, to varying degrees, for years and years. It's been the rule rather than the exception. Among mirrorless systems, does the Leica stand out in introducing a delay? I really don't know for certain, but I just don't think so.

There's been "something to get used to" in practically every photographic system I've used over the years. 

[costa43]

When I look back at the older cameras I have owned, I ask myself the question, would I go back if there was a straight swap of my current camera with a balance of funds spent returned to me on the extra I have paid. Every single time it is a no. I do prefer the output from the CCD cameras personally but I've also come to accept that Leica will keep evolving the M and they will likely never release my perfect camera. 

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[Kiwimac]

There are other benefits to the M11. 
 

Electronic shutter allowing far higher speeds can be useful to use fast lenses without ND filters, depending on the subject. 
 

Internal storage is very handy. 
 

No messing about with baseplates to change batteries etc

 Much better connectivity to your phone, iPad and so forth. 
 

Of the digital M cameras I’ve owned (10-R, 11, 11-P) I would say that the 11 family is in general terms the better camera. 
 

In purely imaging terms, I think the 10-R sensor is a nicer look and I wouldn’t have been miffed if they’d stuck it into the M11 to be honest.