Cropping and perspective -once again (split thread)

[keithlaban.co.uk]

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I love my Q3 43 because it is has 43mm fixed lens which is my preferred focal length for a walk-around camera. I didn't buy it to use in crop modes or to replace my other cameras. I can live with not using it as Leica intended. I appreciate the 60mp files for what they are rather than what they can be in crop modes. I have other interchangeable lens cameras when needed.

Each to their own.

[jaapv]

6 minutes ago, keithlaban.co.uk said:

Each to their own.

+1

[Oxfordian]

14 hours ago, chris_tribble said:

@jaapv  this is interesting - and I largely agree.  However, it does miss the point re what a stellar lens the 43 Apo is.  Shot at native FL I prefer it to the 28 on the Q3. For me that was enough of an argument to justify the switch. The fact of more satisfactory cropping (while maintaining a surprising degree of subject / background separation) made it even more compelling. For most of my work 8 just don’t enjoy 28. If I need it I’ll use the M10-r I’ve held onto. For now, the Q3 43 does the job for me. In this world there are those who will always choose window rather than aisle. Maybe it’s the same for 43 vs 28. I know where I prefer to sit!! 🙂

I like my Q3, I could have bought the Q343 but decided that having a moderate wide angle lens was more useful for day to day photography, if I need to go wider than 28 then I can use my SL2 with the wide end of my Sigma 24-70 or the Sigma 20mm prime, if I need a quality image beyond 50mm on the Q3 I can use the SL2 with longer lenses. A lot of my photography is taken using the full width of the Q3's sensor or using the 35 and 50 frame lines I rarely use the 75 or 90 frame lines with the Q3.

Even in post I crop hard into the image hardly at all, unless it was a once in a lifetime shot, I decided that the Q343 was too limiting for general out and about photography, now I do appreciate that I am only looking at this from my own needs but that is the only way that you can decide.

Would I like a Q343 - Maybe. But, what I would really be interested in is Leica bringing out a Q4 with a fixed optical 28/35/50 lens rather than a digital crop, if they could make it a fast f2 or f2.8 aperture that would be brilliant - Over to you Mr Leica.

[fotografr]

https://shotkit.com/perspective-photography/

10. Telephoto lenses and foreshortening

A telephoto lens brings the subject it’s trained on up close. It also compresses the perspective, bringing things in the background forward. They will appear as if stacked up against each other in a shallow space with the sense of perspective lost.

Foreshortening is the effect of things in the middle distance and background being pushed up to the foreground, exaggerating the size of the objects in the foreground and destroying the normal expectations of perspective.

[jaapv]

That article is simply wrong here. The last sentence is bollocks. The foreshortening is because of the distance to the subject, not because of the focal length. No camera can change the relationship between physical objects, least of all bringing the background closer. You need a wheelbarrow for that..

The long focal length only narrows the framing, so you record only a small part of the existing perspective. If you use a 28 and crop to the same field of view, the perspective will be identical. See the proof of my example.

The photographical effect of foreshortening is caused by increasing the distance between the camera and the subject, not by the lens.

[M11 for me]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb fotografr:

https://shotkit.com/perspective-photography/

10. Telephoto lenses and foreshortening

A telephoto lens brings the subject it’s trained on up close. It also compresses the perspective, bringing things in the background forward. They will appear as if stacked up against each other in a shallow space with the sense of perspective lost.

Foreshortening is the effect of things in the middle distance and background being pushed up to the foreground, exaggerating the size of the objects in the foreground and destroying the normal expectations of perspective.

Its is actually very easy to just test this yourself: Put your camera onto a tripod and try with 2 focal lengths that you own (or else use an zoom lens). Put some objects onto your table: some near to your camera and some futrher away. Take a few shots with your lenses without moving your tripod nor table and then go to your post processing tool and crop your wide images.

Would that not be much more a learning than the debate here and the quoting of articles. I prefer learning by doing and then we all will understand the content of the articles. Often you cannot test yourself but in your case its probably quicker done than reading the article.

[jaapv]

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4 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

Its is actually very easy to just test this yourself: Put your camera onto a tripod and try with 2 focal lengths that you own (or else use an zoom lens). Put some objects onto your table: some near to your camera and some futrher away. Take a few shots with your lenses without moving your tripod nor table and then go to your post processing tool and crop your wide images.

Would that not be much more a learning than the debate here and the quoting of articles. I prefer learning by doing and then we all will understand the content of the articles. Often you cannot test yourself but in your case its probably quicker done than reading the article.

As per my post no. 11.  

 

[M11 for me]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

As per my post no. 11.  

 

Of course. Great and thank you.

What I am concered and without doing this by myself I will never fully understand. As a consequence I always will misinterprete contents of articles that might basically be good . . . And it would be so easy to make all these tests myself and then understand.

And in that sense a last point to be added to my post #26:

Make all your images with your different lenses with the same aperture (e.g. use f/4 for all test shots). This will then result in different opening diameters in mm of your different lenses (not the same 😇). Then shoot a second series and apply the aperture that will result in exactly the same diameter in mm of the opening of the used lens (equivalence).

Edited June 29 by M11 for me

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, M11 for me said:

Its is actually very easy to just test this yourself: Put your camera onto a tripod and try with 2 focal lengths that you own (or else use an zoom lens). Put some objects onto your table: some near to your camera and some futrher away. Take a few shots with your lenses without moving your tripod nor table and then go to your post processing tool and crop your wide images.

Would that not be much more a learning than the debate here and the quoting of articles. I prefer learning by doing and then we all will understand the content of the articles. Often you cannot test yourself but in your case its probably quicker done than reading the article.

Exactly.  We did this in a photo workshop I took about 40 years ago; never forgot.

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, fotografr said:

https://shotkit.com/perspective-photography/

10. Telephoto lenses and foreshortening

A telephoto lens brings the subject it’s trained on up close. It also compresses the perspective, bringing things in the background forward. They will appear as if stacked up against each other in a shallow space with the sense of perspective lost.

Foreshortening is the effect of things in the middle distance and background being pushed up to the foreground, exaggerating the size of the objects in the foreground and destroying the normal expectations of perspective.

As Jaap said, just wrong, like many articles.  Try it yourself; I have.  Relationship between near and far objects (perspective) remains identical when shooting from the same position, regardless of focal length (or cropping). 

[IkarusJohn]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

That is exactly the reason that Leica gave the Q3 a high MP count….  You repeat my points precisely trying to make it sound like a rebuttal. Please explain how to fit Leica’s variety of lenses on a Q. 
What is a Hasselblad doing in a Q thread?  

Perspective

[jaapv]

But not very perceptive.

[thelivingyears]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

 Leica interestingly makes a variety of lenses with different focal lengths, and you can move your feet.

Cropping, I can do on my iPhone.

Wow. 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

But not very perceptive.

Ad hominem?

[jaapv]

Wordplay...

[RQ44]

I dont see the cropping modes on any cameras as a representation of that fixed focal length. For me its just a number. They could have quite easily replaced 35mm, 50mm, 75mm and 90mm with 2x 3x 4x 5x you know what I mean. For me its just a digital zoom not a focal length.

[M11 for me]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb RQ44:

I dont see the cropping modes on any cameras as a representation of that fixed focal length. For me its just a number. They could have quite easily replaced 35mm, 50mm, 75mm and 90mm with 2x 3x 4x 5x you know what I mean. For me its just a digital zoom not a focal length.

Well its the same as croping in post processing. Nothing magic. But when you crop in camera then one can assume that you thought something when taking an image.

Imagine my wife comes home with a bunch of shots with her Q3. She likes to crop in camera to 35 or 50mm. Seldom more.

When I see these shots now in Lightroom then I know what her expectations were. To me that makes a big difference. She does not just shoot and later in post she leaves it to me how to crop. No, on the contrary: Before ever taking a shot one can set the angle of view right. 

[Pierre68]

Another thing with in camera cropping is that focus and light measurement are limited to the crops zone which will affect overall rendering of the picture.

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Pierre68:

Another thing with in camera cropping is that focus and light measurement are limited to the crops zone which will affect overall rendering of the picture.

it would be great if you could explain more in detail what you observed regarding the rendering . . .

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[LocalHero1953]

I've never understood the meaning of 'render' in photographic terms. ASAIK, render is:

• what you put on the outside of your house.
• a smelly process to remove the fat from animal skins and bones.
• what you shouldn't do with evil ('render to no man evil for evil' - the Bible, Romans ch. 12, v.17).

Which of these applies to photography?