Leica Forum: Only Leica pictures or also L-Mount?

[LUF Admin]

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Recently a question has come up in the Leica Forum that I can't find a good answer to:

Should only pictures taken with Leica equipment be allowed in the Leica Forum?
Or should we also allow pictures taken with L-mount products from other brands (e.g. Panasonic, Sigma, Sirui)?

I have set up a poll to get a picture of the mood: Please vote which solution you think is the best. 

It will also help me to make a decision if you comment here, explain your decision or suggest an alternative.

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[jaapv]

My comment - as a member, not as moderator-  is that we should acknowledge that Leica has introduced the L Alliance and has integrated themselves completely in their own creation. They codevelop technology for cameras with Panasonic, they clearly integrate lens development with Sigma and Panasonic, creating a multi-tier product range.

I think that restricting ourselves to "Leica only" ignores Leica's present-day position in the photographic industry.

[FrozenInTime]

I would extend this debate for a sub-forum to acknowledge Leica's seldom mentioned micro 43 partnership with Panasonic/Lumix.

I use a number of great Leica DG lenses ( Summilux primes and Vario-Elmarit zooms ) on the Lumix G100D and GH7.

[jaapv]

4 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I would extend this debate for a sub-forum to acknowledge Leica's seldom mentioned micro 43 partnership with Panasonic/Lumix.

I use a number of great Leica DG lenses ( Summilux primes and Vario-Elmarit zooms ) on the Lumix G100D and GH7.

Agree. The Leica-branded MFT lenses were created in close collaboration, with Panasonic optical engineers visiting Solms to discuss the designs with Leica experts on a regular basis. And I think that the basic design of the Digilux2 came from Leica. 

[Ken Abrahams]

I think the extended category with other L Mount cameras and Lenses. I didnt think that at first however. Initially I thought "others" could be sub categories like it works at the moment and then the idea of incorporating other equipment can be beneficial as I hardly visit the other SL mount products (pages). If they were combined I could "see" more regularly and could better understand those products. It would be even more beneficial if camera type or/and lens type to be included (if possible) otherwise it could become messy.    

[LocalHero1953]

I voted for the sub-forum or special thread option because while L-mount is closely integrated with Leica, this is the Leica forum, not the L-mount forum. 

I would be happy to see a subforum along the lines of 'I like film': perhaps 'I like L-mount'? For images taken with neither a Leica lens nor a Leica body.

Edited Wednesday at 09:49 AM by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

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Yes I think some separation could be made in the same way that there is a separate L mount technical forum. 
But it could also be achieved by creating a “Leica only” parallel photo section with the same subject chapters that mirrors the present photoforums. And by making the “equipement used” mention obligatory. Most of us do anyway. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

I wouldn't limit the question to L-Mount only. For me, the question is: How far is a picture a sufficient "Leica reference"?
More specifically: Is the "mount" still a sufficient reference?

• For example, a Sigma lens on a Lumix S1II just because it also uses the L-mount?
• Does a Voigtlander Nokton or Thypoch Simera M-mount lens adapted to a Sony still produce a "LUF-qualified" image, when used on a non-Leica branded camera?

In my view, the "Leica relevance" is sufficiently established as long as the lens used for the picture can also be used on a Leica M or Leica SL and is therefore "relevant" to Leica users. It helps a user of these cameras decide whether this lens is worth considering. For example, my shots of living (and therefore moving) people, especially at longer focal lengths and wide-open apertures, are usually much more precisely focused when I use the Techart Pro LM-EA9 AF adapter on a Sony (or a comparable adapter on a Nikon) than manually focused shots. On the M9 rangefinder, a sufficiently focused image with a 50/1.0 or 75/1.4 is more of a matter of luck, whereas a camera with an AF adapter delivers a hit rate of about 90% even with this. This usually demonstrates the true achievable potential of these lenses more frequently, better, and more reliably.

Edited Wednesday at 09:54 AM by 3D-Kraft.com

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Does a Voigtlander Nokton or Thypoch Simera M-mount lens adapted to a Sony still produce a "LUF-qualified" image, when used on a non-Leica branded camera?

For me that is a step too far. There is no connection to the L alliance thus not to Leica.  The exclusivity of the M mount ended when the patent expired. 

[pippy]

My own view is that, in general, the current guideline that either the camera or lens should be of Leica manufacture is appropriate.

The point raised earlier by 3-D Kraft is apposite; if a photograph to be posted was created by means where neither the lens nor camera was Leica-sourced then it shouldn't qualify for display unless there were unusual mitigating circumstances for it being shown.

Philip.

[David Cantor]

38 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes I think some separation could be made in the same way that there is a separate L mount technical forum. 
But it could also be achieved by creating a “Leica only” parallel photo section. that mirrors the present photoforums. And by making the “equipement used” mention obligatory. Most of us do anyway. 

Obligatory mention of the equipment used would make me vote with my feet. I have one Leica camera and one Leica lens and the belief that a good photograph is made between the ears rather than the equipment used. While I’m here, I usually view images by subject matter rather than the camera used and probably miss out on some great work but there’s a limit to the time I’m prepared to spend here. There seems to me to be an imbalance in the forum between photography and equipment and very little by way of education, sterile subject threads, books are rarely mentioned and well-known photographers mentioned only when they’re on their way to the pearly gates. I’ve digressed.

Edited Wednesday at 10:23 AM by David Cantor

[UliWer]

Since almost every lens can be adapted to almost any mirrorless camera, there is no clear rational argument which might guide your answer on what is „allowed“ or not. The Forum has to make decisions though. There are other places in the www. to show the great achievements of some brands’ opto-mechanics on Sony or Nikon cameras. No need to hide in a Leica niche.

I think the Forum‘s devolopment to accept the products of the L-mount alliance has worked quite well, so I don‘t see any reason to change this. And experience tought us that administrative changes don‘t really work. 

[LUF Admin]

3 minutes ago, David Cantor said:

There seems to me to be an imbalance in the forum between photography and equipment and very little by way education, sterile subject threads, books are rarely mentioned and well-known photographers mentioned only when they’re on their way to the pearly gates.

Important topic but…

• Not the question we try to answer here
• Not subject to what we can do as moderators: It’s up to the members to start topics

[Oxfordian]

I'm new to Leica with a Q3 and SL2 cameras.

The lenses I have for the SL2 are as follows;

Sigma - 20mm F2 DGDN C
Sigma - 24-70 F2.8 DGDN Art
Leica - 50mm F2 ASPH Summicron
Panasonic - 85mm F1.8 Lumix S

In addition I use a selection of Nikon MF lenses via a K&F adapter.

Now if I voted 1 - Leica plus Leica - would my 50mm lens be accepted as it is apparently a clone of a Panasonic lens which has been tweaked (not designed) by Leica?

Now if I voted 2 - L mount camera plus L mount lens - I could post images from my SL2 irrespective of which lens I use as long as it was L mount

Now if I voted 3 - L mount camera plus any lens - I could post images from my SL2 irrespective of lens used.

I will vote 3 as one of the key aspects of the L mount was that it opened the mount to collaboration from other parties, as a result the L mount has an incredibly wide range of cameras and lenses that suit budgets and needs of many photographers. In addition the L mount is readily adapted so that MF lenses can be used from a huge range of old and new MF glass allowing photographers to explore their creativity in many different fields of photography.

To vote 1 or 2 would to me undermine what Leica set out to do when it opened the L mount to other parties.

[LUF Admin]

3 minutes ago, UliWer said:

And experience tought us that administrative changes don‘t really work. 

Decisions against the will of the members’ majority don’t work – that’s why I started the thread.

But sometimes I have to make decisions and I have to enforce them. And that went not too bad (25 years and still flourishing…)

[David Cantor]

4 minutes ago, LUF Admin said:

Important topic but…

• Not the question we try to answer here
• Not subject to what we can do as moderators: It’s up to the members to start topics

Agreed.

[LUF Admin]

7 minutes ago, Oxfordian said:

I'm new to Leica with a Q3 and SL2 cameras.

[…]

To vote 1 or 2 would to me undermine what Leica set out to do when it opened the L mount to other parties.

Just to be clear: Under all of the offered options your images would be OK without restrictions:

Using a Leica camera qualifies them under all circumstances.

Sample borderline case:

• Sigma camera with Panasonic lens (L-Mount but no Leica product)

[evikne]

31 minutes ago, David Cantor said:

Obligatory mention of the equipment used would make me vote with my feet. I have one Leica camera and one Leica lens and the belief that a good photograph is made between the ears rather than the equipment used. While I’m here, I usually view images by subject matter rather than the camera used and probably miss out on some great work but there’s a limit to the time I’m prepared to spend here. There seems to me to be an imbalance in the forum between photography and equipment and very little by way of education, sterile subject threads, books are rarely mentioned and well-known photographers mentioned only when they’re on their way to the pearly gates. I’ve digressed.

I refrain from giving likes to photos when equipment is omitted. And on the flip side, is there any reason to keep it a secret? This is an equipment-related forum, so I think what is used is always important and interesting information.

Edited Wednesday at 10:54 AM by evikne

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[jaapv]

40 minutes ago, pippy said:

My own view is that, in general, the current guideline that either the camera or lens should be of Leica manufacture is appropriate.

Not quite. We have been accepting L mount images for some years now.   Manufacture should- under the present system- be read as “ Leica (AKA L mount) related.”The question raised by Andreas is whether we should make a more clear division. 
As it is, the provenance of images of images is hard enough to moderate. Stripping or modifying EXIF is simple enough and the moderators do and will not police each and every image. 
In fact, we have given up in the film image section for many years. 

[LUF Admin]

Can you do me a favor?

We try to find a good solution for all members. To announce harsh consequences (leaving, no more participation) in case of one or another outcome doesn't help and brings a negative twist to the discussion.

Please trust in the community and the administration that we'll find a good set of rules, which is understood and accepted by all members.