Want your opinion on 50mm, APO vs Summilux

[Albert Ma]

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Hello.  I shoot a lot of portraits, and some events.  I am considering getting 50 apo or 50 lux.  I would love the shallow depth of field, but sometimes I'm afraid the Summilux would be too heavy for a 6 hour event.  Also anyone have experience with on camera flash with 50 lux?  Also I heard the focus speed is an issue, I am shooting on SL2.  

[jaapv]

Isn’t the APO a bit clinical for portraiture? 

[Albert Ma]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Isn’t the APO a bit clinical for portraiture? 

Besides 50mm, all SL primes are APO. I have seen some great portraiture done with them.  Clinical is only an issue for photographers, most clients would love a clean and crisp image.  

[insomnia]

On the SL2 you won't recognise the higher weight.

I've shot the APO for a year, found it boring and gladly went back to the 50/1.4 ASPH, the champion of the Leica lens line-up.

Edit: scratch that, you're talking about the SL line. would not buy either 😀

Edited June 5 by insomnia

[Jeff S]

36 minutes ago, Albert Ma said:

I would love the shallow depth of field, but sometimes I'm afraid the Summilux would be too heavy for a 6 hour event. 

The Summilux is only 1.3 oz (37gr) heavier.  I own the 50 Summilux ASPH v.1 and the current 50 Summicron v.5 (non-ASPH). The latter is 2.1 oz less than the APO, and arguably more pleasing for portraiture.  But I keep my M lenses on my M bodies, not on my SL2. 

[hansvons]

25 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Isn’t the APO a bit clinical for portraiture? 

Below a shot I recently took with the APO 35mm SL at f/2. Can’t say it’s clinical. The bokeh even swirls and shows rugby ball-shaped, soapy bokeh balls. This is a character lens, and I bet the 50mm APO is no different. 

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[Albert Ma]

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21 minutes ago, insomnia said:

On the SL2 you won't recognise the higher weight.

I've shot the APO for a year, found it boring and gladly went back to the 50/1.4 ASPH, the champion of the Leica lens line-up.

Edit: scratch that, you're talking about the SL line. would not buy either 😀

 

21 minutes ago, insomnia said:

LOL too late.  Already ordered the 50lux.  I do have the M version of 50 lux and it is lovely.  I have read that Leica claim the SL 50 summilux is "new standard for lens design and image quality". Not true?

 

 

Edited June 5 by Albert Ma

[Albert Ma]

16 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The Summilux is only 1.3 oz (37gr) heavier.  I own the 50 Summilux ASPH v.1 and the current 50 Summicron v.5 (non-ASPH). The latter is 2.1 oz less than the APO, and arguably more pleasing for portraiture.  But I keep my M lenses on my M bodies, not on my SL2. 

Yes, I just did some research, it is actually lighter than my Canon RF 85 1.2 which I use for hours at events.  I am talking about the 50 lux SL version. 😜 

[LD_50]

2 minutes ago, Albert Ma said:

Yes, I just did some research, it is actually lighter than my Canon RF 85 1.2 which I use for hours at events.  I am talking about the 50 lux SL version. 😜 

The 50SL Summilux is 325g heavier than the 50SL APO Summicron. You’re right, it is still a bit lighter than the Canon you referenced.

I shoot the 50SL Summilux regularly. While I don’t have the 50SL APO, I do have the 35SL APO (basically equal size and weight to the 50) and the handling difference between the two is substantial. The size of the Summilux and resulting balance is quite different. The 35 is much nicer to carry and less noticeable for something like street photography. For portraits or events I don’t think that matters much. 

I don’t think I would choose the 50SL APO Summicron over the Summilux for portraits. I prefer the character of the Summilux, despite the size. For the same reason I have a 50 M Summilux rather than 50 M APO Summicron. 

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, Albert Ma said:

Yes, I just did some research, it is actually lighter than my Canon RF 85 1.2 which I use for hours at events.  I am talking about the 50 lux SL version. 😜 

Oh, a beast.  Almost as big and heavy as my SL24-90, which can serve many purposes.

[Albert Ma]

9 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

The 50SL Summilux is 325g heavier than the 50SL APO Summicron. You’re right, it is still a bit lighter than the Canon you referenced.

I shoot the 50SL Summilux regularly. While I don’t have the 50SL APO, I do have the 35SL APO (basically equal size and weight to the 50) and the handling difference between the two is substantial. The size of the Summilux and resulting balance is quite different. The 35 is much nicer to carry and less noticeable for something like street photography. For portraits or events I don’t think that matters much. 

I don’t think I would choose the 50SL APO Summicron over the Summilux for portraits. I prefer the character of the Summilux, despite the size. For the same reason I have a 50 M Summilux rather than 50 M APO Summicron. 

I have the sigma art 35 1.4.  I know, it is a sin to use Sigma on Leica.  It is so so but good enough.  But I want a proper Leica glass for portraits.  And when I do events, it gets dark.  SL2 is not known for low light performance, so I probably need the 1.4.

[LD_50]

6 minutes ago, Albert Ma said:

I have the sigma art 35 1.4.  I know, it is a sin to use Sigma on Leica.  It is so so but good enough.  But I want a proper Leica glass for portraits.  And when I do events, it gets dark.  SL2 is not known for low light performance, so I probably need the 1.4.

At equivalent output size and viewing distance, the SL2 can perform pretty closely to the SL2-S in terms of noise. Unless you’re viewing large or cropping heavily I likely wouldn’t choose between the two lenses over low light for portraits. 

[Jon Warwick]

36 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

I don’t think I would choose the 50SL APO Summicron over the Summilux for portraits. I prefer the character of the Summilux, despite the size. For the same reason I have a 50 M Summilux rather than 50 M APO Summicron. 

I broadly agree with that. I used to have a 50 SL APO Summicron on my SL2, and in my case I disliked most of the portraits I took with it. Very very sharp, and my eyes don’t see the world as sharp as that.

To take it a step further, I would take any of the M APOs over the SL Summicron APOs for a more pleasing portrait (to my eyes). Within the M lenses, I agree the 50 M Summilux is preferable to my taste too over the 50 M APO Summicron, albeit I take it a step further and use the more “classic” rendering of the M 50 Summicron v5. I also detune some of the acutance by using the lower resolution DNG-S, rather than full 60mp DNG-L on my M11/M11M.

To the OP - have you considered the rendering of the SL 50 “non-APO” Summicron ASPH as an alternative for portraits? Smaller, lighter and quick focus lenses too. 

Edited June 5 by Jon Warwick

[LD_50]

2 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

I broadly agree with that. I used to have a 50 SL APO Summicron on my SL2, and in my case I disliked most of the portraits I took with it. Very very sharp, and my eyes don’t see the world as sharp as that.

To take it a step further, I would take any of the M APOs over the SL Summicron APOs for a more pleasing portrait (to my eyes). Within the M lenses, I agree the 50 M Summilux is preferable to my taste too over the 50 M APO Summicron, albeit I take it a step further and use the more “classic” rendering of the M 50 Summicron v5. I also detune some of the acutance by using the lower resolution DNG-S, rather than full 60mp DNG-L on my M11/M11M. 

To your point, it really comes down to aesthetic preferences if you accept the size and weight of the SL lenses. This is one of the reasons I enjoy using Leica gear. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Albert Ma said:

Besides 50mm, all SL primes are APO. I have seen some great portraiture done with them.  Clinical is only an issue for photographers, most clients would love a clean and crisp image.  

APO as such tells us very little about the quality and rendering of a lens. It is nothing more than an optical definition and a technical term. As used by Leica it is a marketing label indicating their top line. 

[Albert Ma]

19 minutes ago, jaapv said:

APO as such tells us very little about the quality and rendering of a lens. It is nothing more than an optical definition and a technical term. As used by Leica it is a marketing label indicating their top line. 

It is quite jaded the way you put it.  Leica actually take pride in their lens design and image quality.  The SL apo line is described as pinnacle of lens design by Leica.  For example, when tested, Leica 35 Apo SL wide open is sharper in the corners than all other 35mm Leica lenses in the center.  You can talk smack about the Leica price, but I would never doubt those German engineer's integrity.

 

Edited June 5 by Albert Ma

[LocalHero1953]

I have the Summilux-SL 50 and the Apo-Summicron-SL 35 and 75. I find the Summilux much heavier and bulkier compared to the Summicrons. I would probably find it heavy for a 6 hour event, but then it’s not a lens I would choose for an event anyway. Its focus is too slow, and depth of field wide open is just too shallow for that sort of use. Its bokeh is lovely though - the one reason I might pick it over the Summicrons for events. 

For portraits it’s a different matter though. I am happy with very shallow depth of field, and the bokeh is lovely, the slow focus is less important, and I can carry it without thought for the length of a portrait session (and I will put it down from time to time anyway). 

I don’t understand those who talk about a lens being too clinical, as if there is something wrong with such qualities*.  For the right person, for clarity, detail, accurate colours, no micro flare where the light catches the skin (an aberration otherwise known in Leicaland as ‘character’🙄) and no other aberrations, it is perfect. Sharp, accurate lenses are not flattering, but not all subjects require flattering. (And flattery is the aim only of some portraiture). The only thing to watch out for with the Summicron 75 (I suspect the 50 would be the same) is a tendency for’ nervous’ or ‘vibrating’ bokeh, where there is contrasty detail In the background (twigs, foliage, fence slats).

I prefer 75-90 for most portraits, but I use the Summilux 50 for a contextual look - and for ‘difficult’ complexions. For a more forgiving lens I also use either the Sigma 85/1.4 (for AF) or the Summilux-M 75. 

 

* I attribute my inability to get a good portrait to my lack of talent, not the nature of the lens. An interesting and truthful portrait depends mainly on showing the subject’s personality, not their skin texture. IMO of course. 

[Luke_Miller]

My 50 Summilux-SL is my go to for portraiture. I use it with studio flash, but have no experience with on-camera flash.  I just added the 50 APO Summicron-SL for general use. 

[Albert Ma]

25 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have the Summilux-SL 50 and the Apo-Summicron-SL 35 and 75. I find the Summilux much heavier and bulkier compared to the Summicrons. I would probably find it heavy for a 6 hour event, but then it’s not a lens I would choose for an event anyway. Its focus is too slow, and depth of field wide open is just too shallow for that sort of use. Its bokeh is lovely though - the one reason I might pick it over the Summicrons for events. 

For portraits it’s a different matter though. I am happy with very shallow depth of field, and the bokeh is lovely, the slow focus is less important, and I can carry it without thought for the length of a portrait session (and I will put it down from time to time anyway). 

I don’t understand those who talk about a lens being too clinical, as if there is something wrong with such qualities*.  For the right person, for clarity, detail, accurate colours, no micro flare where the light catches the skin (an aberration otherwise known in Leicaland as ‘character’🙄) and no other aberrations, it is perfect. Sharp, accurate lenses are not flattering, but not all subjects require flattering. (And flattery is the aim only of some portraiture). The only thing to watch out for with the Summicron 75 (I suspect the 50 would be the same) is a tendency for’ nervous’ or ‘vibrating’ bokeh, where there is contrasty detail In the background (twigs, foliage, fence slats).

I prefer 75-90 for most portraits, but I use the Summilux 50 for a contextual look - and for ‘difficult’ complexions. For a more forgiving lens I also use either the Sigma 85/1.4 (for AF) or the Summilux-M 75. 

 

* I attribute my inability to get a good portrait to my lack of talent, not the nature of the lens. An interesting and truthful portrait depends mainly on showing the subject’s personality, not their skin texture. IMO of course. 

Thanks!  For events I will still use my SL2 + 35 1.4, R5 + 85 1.2 for bulk of the work.  But it would be nice to have a medium range lens.  Most events the adults tend to stay pretty still 😜 .  If it does not work well for events, I still get myself a nice portrait lens.  I do have a large collection of portrait lenses, buying the 50 1.4 is mostly for curiosity more than a necessity.  I still have the Canon RF 50 1.2, 85 1.2, 70-200.  Hasselblad xcd 55v and 80 1.9.  So I can afford to make a very expensive mistake without ruining my reputation as a portrait photographer.

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[Albert Ma]

12 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

My 50 Summilux-SL is my go to for portraiture. I use it with studio flash, but have no experience with on-camera flash.  I just added the 50 APO Summicron-SL for general use. 

Good to know.  I love the M version of 50 lux.  Being able to autofocus with SL make it much more practical.  I used Godox off camera flash, so may be one day I will bite the bullet and get a set of profoto studion flash.