IBIS, lack of, Feedback

[kiwidad]

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On 5/26/2025 at 3:45 PM, o2mpx said:

Has the absence of ibis been an obstacle?

not even for a 1/4 of a second! I guess if you can't afford a tripod it useful 🙂

 

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, kiwidad said:

Yup and whilst you can shoot at 1/18th of a sec I just don't see how you make your subject freeze while you shoot them!

Subjects like buildings, art pieces, etc are not moving that much😄. Also, it is often nice to have motion blur in an image.

[lct]

2 hours ago, kiwidad said:

I bet when you view the 60MP image on your screen without zooming in  you can't see that pixel peep blur! So I avoid it by viewing the image at a whole at the normal viewing size which for me is on a 14" iPad Pro. If your a hard core "cropper" it might be an issue but.....

Hands up if you remember film and those 16x20 enlargements 🙂 

Frankly do I need to count every hair on a subjects face  lol

I need to pixel peep in post and i won't change my PP tehniques for Leica or anyone else. My solution for now is to avoid slow shutter speeds on the M11. I have cameras with IBIS otherwise, the difference is so obvious that i wonder why i'm still discussing of all that, besides the pleasure to be on the LUF of course 😎

[pgh]

5 hours ago, kiwidad said:

if its not a static subject exactly how do you make it stand still while the sensor exposes at 1/3 of a second?

It is static subjects that I’m talking about. “Place” tends to be that. 

[pgh]

This discussion about why IBIS is unnecessary is suspiciously like it might have sounded if a bunch of f/64 photographers had beers together and mused about why anyone would ever possibly need film speeds faster than ASA 64. If they could just use their equipment properly there’s no need!  These newfangled lazy folks and their desires to make everything easier, ugh, they’re not real photographers. 

/s 
 

[Stuart Richardson]

I use the SL2 and the M10M. I am in my forties and have no tremor problems, and have been photographing with M cameras for 25 years. When I look at my files, the SL2 files show consistently less motion blur. I tend not to shoot in super low light without a tripod. In the large majority of cases, the M files are show no degradation, but there are certainly times when the images are in lower light that there is noticeable motion blur. I am not talking about total softness, just noticeable degradation between frames. The SL2 just doesn't really suffer from it. My conclusion is that IBIS does indeed help in both subtle and unsubtle ways. I tend to use my EVF for precise focus with my 135mm tele-elmar on the M10M, and that would certainly benefit from IBIS on magnification for focusing.

I don't think the M absolutely requires IBIS, but it certainly could help. If they do it in a way that does not increase the size of the body and can be turned off, I think it would be a good addition. Technology advances and things that used to not be possible become routine. I am old enough to remember the early 2000s when Leica was insisting that a digital M camera was impossible. And certainly small cameras have IBIS now...look at the Ricoh GRIII...it has in-body stabilization in a camera so small it could fit inside an M. The sensor is smaller, but not THAT small.

Edited May 31 by Stuart Richardson

[pgh]

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41 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I use the SL2 and the M10M. I am in my forties and have no tremor problems, and have been photographing with M cameras for 25 years. When I look at my files, the SL2 files show consistently less motion blur. I tend not to shoot in super low light without a tripod. In the large majority of cases, the M files are show no degradation, but there are certainly times when the images are in lower light that there is noticeable motion blur. I am not talking about total softness, just noticeable degradation between frames. The SL2 just doesn't really suffer from it. My conclusion is that IBIS does indeed help in both subtle and unsubtle ways. I tend to use my EVF for precise focus with my 135mm tele-elmar on the M10M, and that would certainly benefit from IBIS on magnification for focusing.

I don't think the M absolutely requires IBIS, but it certainly could help. If they do it in a way that does not increase the size of the body and can be turned off, I think it would be a good addition. Technology advances and things that used to not be possible become routine. I am old enough to remember the early 2000s when Leica was insisting that a digital M camera was impossible. And certainly small cameras have IBIS now...look at the Ricoh GRIII...it has in-body stabilization in a camera so small it could fit inside an M. The sensor is smaller, but not THAT small.

Sheesh. I could have written this exact same paragraph myself. Same cameras, same experience, same (decade of) age. Only difference is I’ve only used M’s for 20 years, not 25. 

Only thing I could add is that I tend not to notice this issue on my regular M10/D - which is what tells me that for the way the M is designed the best solution is either to keep the resolution around 24-36 mp, or figure out how to put in an IBIS system if they’re going to keep the high resolution. 

I’ve used M’s to publish images around the world that many users might have come across with their morning coffee.

But if I would only use these cameras properly! 

[Stuart Richardson]

I should say as well, it is not only at speeds like 1/15th or 1/30th, I have seen it at 1/60th or 1/125th, especially with lenses like the 50mm APO Lanthar that have the resolution to pick up the difference. IBIS is not a panacea, but when it is properly implemented it does improve results with very few downsides. And as noted, in a rangefinder the viewfinder experience would be unchanged. I can perfectly understand people not preferring to add it, however. Personally, I think if they do it well, it would be a welcome addition. I definitely agree that increasing resolutions make it ever more noticeable. I tend to use a lot of longer lenses and work with landscape imagery, so it is a lot more noticeable to me than someone who is mostly using wide angles and/or doing photography where critical sharpness is not needed.

Edited May 31 by Stuart Richardson

[DadDadDaddyo]

9528 x 6328 pixels.

That's the pixel density of the M11 sensor. 

I use a camera as the first step in producing a physical object: a print. 

At 300 dpi, that's a print of a little over 31 inches by 21 inches. That's about the largest I ever print. 

An image of that size, taken at that pixel density, will blow you across the room. 

You can put your eye right to it, and you won't see pixels. You'd need a loupe.

At that print size, the difference between a successful hand held shot and a poorly done hand held shot will be pretty obvious. 

I look at my prints of that size, even the hand held shots I judge to have been successful, and I don't see a problem. 

I only shoot available light. I always take care. At shutter speeds of 1/ focal length or slower I take extra care. I've been doing this for an appallingly long time. Sometimes I nail it, sometimes I don't. 

With today's sensors, if I can't nail the hand held shot, I simply raise the ISO. I don't own a flash. 

If I, as a Leica user (or as a user of any camera that doesn't have a moving mirror - remember mirror slap?), have trouble producing a worthwhile print under virtually any lighting conditions in which it's still possible to focus and frame the shot, then I probably ought to take a look at my technique. 

Ok. All that said, I wouldn't get all sniffy and pout if Leica brought out an M with IBIS. Sure, it'd be great. 

But not having IBIS just isn't a spoiler for me. Never has been. It's nice if it's there, but I sure don't lose many shots . 

 

 

Edited May 31 by DadDadDaddyo

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

9528 x 6328 pixels.

That's the pixel density of the M11 sensor. 

I use a camera as the first step in producing a physical object: a print. 

At 300 dpi, that's a print of a little over 31 inches by 21 inches. That's about the largest I ever print. 

An image of that size, taken at that pixel density, will blow you across the room. 

You can put your eye right to it, and you won't see pixels. You'd need a loupe.

At that print size, the difference between a successful hand held shot and a poorly done hand held shot will be pretty obvious. 

I look at my prints of that size, even the hand held shots I judge to have been successful, and I don't see a problem. 

I only shoot available light. I always take care. At shutter speeds of 1/ focal length or slower I take extra care. I've been doing this for an appallingly long time. Sometimes I nail it, sometimes I don't. 

With today's sensors, if I can't nail the hand held shot, I simply raise the ISO. I don't own a flash. 

If I, as a Leica user (or as a user of any camera that doesn't have a moving mirror - remember mirror slap?), have trouble producing a worthwhile print under virtually any lighting conditions in which it's still possible to focus and frame the shot, then I probably ought to take a look at my technique. 

Ok. All that said, I wouldn't get all sniffy and pout if Leica brought out an M with IBIS. Sure, it'd be great. 

But not having IBIS just isn't a spoiler for me. Never has been. It's nice if it's there, but I sure don't lose many shots . 

 

 

I guess you don't crop then.....

[pgk]

4 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I guess you don't crop then.....

This comment about cropping is suspiciously like it might have sounded if a bunch of f/64 photographers had beers together and mused about why anyone would ever possibly need to crop. If they could just use their equipment properly and frame correctly in the first place there’s no need!  These newfangled lazy folks and their desires to make everything easier, ugh, they’re not real photographers. [😁]

[DadDadDaddyo]

Sure I crop. Wasn't the point. 

I don't lose many cropped photos to camera motion either...

 In fact, good grief, there are plenty more ways for me to goof up a perfectly good shot besides camera motion. It's not high on the extensive list of ways I foul up. 

Timing. I probably lose more shots to timing than anything else, either shooting after the moment that would have been perfect, or just before it (and then missing it).

Or positioning. Realizing later that I should have taken a half step to the right or the left, or tilted a bit up, or down. 

But camera motion? Nah. It's down there with getting the exposure wrong. Almost as far down as leaving the lens cap on. 

And I've done that, too....

[kiwidad]

11 hours ago, pgh said:

This discussion about why IBIS is unnecessary is suspiciously like it might have sounded if a bunch of f/64 photographers had beers together and mused about why anyone would ever possibly need film speeds faster than ASA 64. If they could just use their equipment properly there’s no need!  These newfangled lazy folks and their desires to make everything easier, ugh, they’re not real photographers. 

/s 
 

Absolutely!

why should that which does as intended since 1953 be changed! The m11 works perfectly for me and give me satisfactory images just like my m6 and m3 before that did!

if I need to enlarge over 11x17 I use a tripod just like I always have!

less to break or go wrong too!

[kiwidad]

2 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Sure I crop. Wasn't the point. 

I don't lose many cropped photos to camera motion either...

 In fact, good grief, there are plenty more ways for me to goof up a perfectly good shot besides camera motion. It's not high on the extensive list of ways I foul up. 

Timing. I probably lose more shots to timing than anything else, either shooting after the moment that would have been perfect, or just before it (and then missing it).

Or positioning. Realizing later that I should have taken a half step to the right or the left, or tilted a bit up, or down. 

But camera motion? Nah. It's down there with getting the exposure wrong. Almost as far down as leaving the lens cap on. 

And I've done that, too....

I feel your pain waiting for rhe lens cap on image to finish !

[steve edmunds]

19 hours ago, kiwidad said:

Yup and whilst you can shoot at 1/18th of a sec I just don't see how you make your subject freeze while you shoot them!

you do not do wildlife obviously

[DadDadDaddyo]

I find out pretty quickly if I've left the lens cap on with a digital camera. Just another way things have changed for the better. Don't have to wait to find out after the wash cycle...

1968. I borrowed my Dad's IIIc, and a Hektor 135. Loaded up with Tri-X. Got a can of Acu-1, letting me push the ASA to 1600 (!), then went to the Jimi Hendrix concert. 

Camera motion? You bet. And subject motion? Are you kidding?? 

Came home and ran the film through the soup. Whew! Didn't leave the lens cap on! 

Sure, some funky pictures. But on others, magic happened. Lightning struck. We both held still at the same instant, and it was the right instant for a shot. Amazing. Even some of the pictures in motion, well, they're among my favorites. I mean, the guy moved when he played, y'know? 

I "lost" more of those shots that night to subject motion than to camera motion. And they're still great. 

I still have that film. And that IIIc. And that beat up old Hektor. And I wouldn't trade them for anything. 

And in all the years since, when I've taken a look at those shots, not ever, not even once, have I said to myself....

"Aw, gee whiz, if only I'd had IBIS that night!"

[Stuart Richardson]

That’s a wonderful story, but frankly you could say that about any camera. Taking blurry photos at a concert as a youth is maybe not such a problem. In that kind of case, maybe the blur works with the vibe. That is not always the case, particularly for professional use.  If you are on assignment or trying to take photos in a unstable environment, IBIS is great. I will give a very concrete example. A few years ago we had a volcanic eruption here and I had the chance to take a helicopter out there. I photographed with the SL2 and a Mamiya 7II with 400 speed film. Despite a vibration free leaf shutter, superb ergonomics and shooting at 1/500th, nearly every Mamiya shot was unusable due to vibration. Almost every single SL2 photo was tack sharp. Again, assuming they can do it elegantly and seamlessly, I think it would be a great edition to M bodies in the future. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Again, assuming they can do it elegantly and seamlessly, I think it would be a great edition to M bodies in the future. 

No argument there. Again, I'm not arguing against IBIS in principle or in practice. I'll be glad to have it, too. When I'm in a situation that calls for it I reach for a body that has it. 

And, no, it won't change the M to something lesser or somehow impure, at least, not in my eyes. 

It's just that IBIS is rarely a make or break factor in my photography. Admittedly, I'm rarely in a situation in which environmentally induced vibration, such as you describe, affects my efforts. Those are precisely the situations in which IBIS may be pivotal in getting the shot or not. 

But that's not what I'm mostly hearing in some parts of this thread. I'm hearing that IBIS is needed, in routine low light situations, just to get the shot, and I find that sentiment laughable.

Want to hand hold a quarter second? Sure, IBIS helps. But why shoot at a quarter second?

Want to hand hold a 30th of a second with a 35mm lens, or a 60th with a 50mm lens, or a 90th with a 90, and just can't do it without IBIS, because you need to view your pictures at 100% on your monitor? Is that how folks show their pictures to others? Friends, family? 

Please. 

It's like the friends I had back in the glory days of the home stereo who'd select music to play on the basis of which part of their hand-selected component system a given track would exhibit.

They weren't using the stereo to listen to music, they were using music to listen to their stereos.

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Hallo,

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[mikeamosau]

Never needed and never missed it. Just buy something other than an M if you need all that. 

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

That’s a wonderful story, but frankly you could say that about any camera. Taking blurry photos at a concert as a youth is maybe not such a problem. In that kind of case, maybe the blur works with the vibe. That is not always the case, particularly for professional use.  If you are on assignment or trying to take photos in a unstable environment, IBIS is great. I will give a very concrete example. A few years ago we had a volcanic eruption here and I had the chance to take a helicopter out there. I photographed with the SL2 and a Mamiya 7II with 400 speed film. Despite a vibration free leaf shutter, superb ergonomics and shooting at 1/500th, nearly every Mamiya shot was unusable due to vibration. Almost every single SL2 photo was tack sharp. Again, assuming they can do it elegantly and seamlessly, I think it would be a great edition to M bodies in the future. 

I have been shooting a lot with H6D at 1/500 from helicopter (and a Sony A7r2 with IBIS), and lack of stabilization was not an issue when handholding and not leaning on the helicopter. Same goes for people who shot with Phase One.