Panasonic S1II and S1IIE render SL3-S obsolete...

[LD_50]

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54 minutes ago, AdjusterBrett said:

OK, I'm just an OUTSIDER - and a weekend hack - who happens to own (and love) a couple of Leica's that are not M class.  I think you ALL are missing the point - Leica is NEVER on the cutting edge, nor an early adopter - but they do absorb and perfect many of what the industry puts out there.  I'm disappointed in the SL3S, period - but I am NOT their customer...  I'm NOT normal - 9 years in this journey (10 y/o Daughter) - 30 some bodies later, 200+ vintage lenses, and probably 40 native lenses - I'm CHEAP (frugal is such an open-ended undercut of what is really going on).  I've only ever bought two bodies new - and I returned one (SL2S) - EVERTHING via used or trade.  Leica SL - arguably the BEST handling body ever - especially for vintage.  TL2 - just downright cool and somewhat useful with the Visoflex for manual.  I returned the SL2S because it didn't' handle as well as the SL, and it seemed on par with my S1 (which shoots in the dark - low light high ISO).  For the price - it just wasn't worth keeping in comparison.

IF I need autofocus - its Sony- face facts.  Perhaps Nikon is CATCHING UP - but it's been Sony forever.  I regularly stand at the ground level near the big hill drop at cedar point (roller coaster capital of the world) - and like other proud fathers - I attempt to grab some shots of my daughter and friends during the drop.  Guess what - even the S1ii or the SL3 will pale in comparison to the newer Sony's and Nikons - and if you think not - I'll gladly bet you (bring your pink slip for the SL3 and whatever lens you want), bring a travel bag as well, that way I can carry them home with me after the fact.   The autofocus is BETTER, but it's far from best - especially in that environment when you are shooting at 400+mm.

IF I need video - which I do very little - I'm likely headed to Lumix - they have been the leader and now it's pretty hard to argue against it.

IF I need IBIS - again - Lumix tends to set the bar.

IF i need a travel cam - I would own a Q - pretty firm on that - EXCEPT I am on my second Sony RX1 - and setting aside all that was said in regard to Sony's autofocus (the RX1 does not have good AF) - the RX1 is still my goto - small, add a Godox TT350 and they fit in the back pockets - and for a 15 y/o camera - its exceptional - a poor man's Q.  

Sidenote - I have two R1 (circa 2005) - imagine an exceptional Zeiss zoom 24-120 mounted to old Sony color science aps-c, then surround with cheap rounded plastics form 2005 - it's a great workhorse for harsh environments (she has shot >100 post fire engulfed commercial buildings).  You want to talk about slow - you want to talk about clunky - you want to offer something in comparison that would do the same job - good luck at a low-end price point.  The tone of the sidenote is the camera fits the need (theme)...

YES, I returned an SL2S (paid full price back then) - because FOR ME, it didn't offer anything for vintage or AF or video that the S1 or SL already did as well if not better (I actually use the 6k recording and multishot in the S1, and handling wise the SL was a masterpiece).  YES, with the prices down - being an idiot, I'm sure I'll buy a used one soon - but that questions my psyche - no bearing on this conversation LOL>

So what are we really talking about???   The S1IIe or S1II is a video camera first - and nowhere as stout as my S1 nor the SL - either can be used in an emergency to break a windshield...   The SL3s and even the SL3 - what are they?  in the marketplace you have the fuji mediums, the hassels and the big boy Sony (which if you have not looked through that EVF - do it).  There is also the newer Nikons which are shining well...

Leica is LEICA - it's NOT a cult - it's a belief, and an experience.  For instance - is the 50 lux 1.4 that much better than the lumix 50/1.4 or the sigma 50/1.2 - that's an opinion-based assessment but even the most devout fan boy cannot argue the other two can provide stunning images.  If you are a purist - I respect that - but if you think Leica is absolutely the end all - then live that life.   I cannot afford an SL3 and a lux 50/1.4, period.  Most can't.  

Leica is an opportunity to own and use the top of the line (quality) at a price about the same as those more technically advanced (a93, any of the mediums), and often much less in the used market.  Leica is special - yes, but its more about the experience for me than the simple review of the output.  When I shot my a7r2 - I dreaded switching lenses from say a 24mm to a 105mm - set the WB, adjuster the ISO (depending on color or B&W), mess with this setting - etc.  Same on the Lumix S1 (although most of what I needed to do had a hard button).  On the SL - it was a pleasure - swap - no IBIS to set, WB is a reflex, ISO is a reflex, etc.  HECK - aside from the fact I swear I'm gonna break the visoflex - I love it on the TL2 - whcih still have the absolute best user interface ever.

I have an acquaintance / friend (more money than God) - every once in a while, we meet up - and around his neck is more money than what I drove in on in most cases - last time - M11/Lux vs. my TL2 with a pancolor star wars.  Had better than a dozen people CONSTANTLY asking about mine - only two asked about his.  I enjoy showing it off - it's just cool - and it's a LOT OF WORK to shoot vintage on it - but I think it's worth it...   I love Jim as he lets me play with his toys - and he loves to TOSS me a lens (and yes, usually followed by a clothing change in the bathroom)...   He IS a better photographer than me - frames so much better, has an eye for it and a wallet to support his ridiculous habit - he literally buys everything - but guess what - he isn't half as proud of a keeper as I am on the TL2 and that god awful Exacta mount pancolor and its crapy focus ring - why - because I worked for that one - and I take pictures for ME, not others.  

I THINK Leica is about how it makes me feel - the experience.  I shot (Jims) Alpha 1 - WOW (and if I could have figured out a way to swap his EVF and mine, why didn't' I bring those tiny screwdrivers...).  Well its kinda like my iPads - I have many for work - specifically I have a 6th gen 12.9 with 2TB and have multiple 5th and 6th gen minis - and when I load up lightroom and edit away - there really isn't all that much difference in speed and NO DIFFERENCE in output.  HOWEVER, I much prefer the experience on the 12.9 with its rocket fast processer and gobs of memory and real estate.  Same result, but I paid to have the experience on the bigger screen/memory/processor.  Some might argue that is technical in its difference - I'd argue the bigger iPad is much like a Lecia - you can do pretty much the same thing on the smaller iPad minis which cost 1/5th as much - you just won't enjoy it as much.  That enjoyment isn't all technical based, as the 'handling' on the larger iPad with the pencil - so much better.  Not a perfect comparison - but a conversation starter.

If you think for one second Leica is looking to compete with an Alpha one or the A9III, then you probably should chase the other brands.  Leica is like an old Jag e-type - with a hood so ridiculously long, and a huge engine that only competes verbally with the competition - but if you have ever driven one - it's the experience, not the exhilaration that makes that such a sought-after classic.

Sorry for the long post, I'm off the soapbox (before I fall and hurt myself) - I just seem to either misunderstand the Lecia realm and wanted to give the opportunity for anyone to explain it so I might understand it better.

PS>>> I AM NOT dogging on anyone but want to make sure I'm in the right mindset for a Leica...   I myself have a Wishlist - EVF with double the normal magnification (I know this is a function of the sensor as well), IBIS, EXCEPTIONAL high ISO/ low light (I'll even take a lower Megapixel count), User entry into EXIF at lens change (PLEASE), SL like buttons, and a Panasonic coded Hotshoe, NO AF, NO VIDEO, M mount or M42, and a shorter flange (let me adapt even XF or Nikon Z)...  Call it the new Leica "V" for Vintage.

Neck extended - chop away!!!

No chopping needed. I’ll just add that for many things, stating what’s “better” than Leica doesn’t mean a whole lot unless the Leica isn’t good enough for your needs. 

IBIS is a perfect example where the small difference (-0.5 stops) in rating for the SL3-S compared to SL2-S has been talked about on this forum as meaningful but for me makes no important difference. Compare SL to SL2-S (I owned both) and you go from no IBIS to 5.5 stops and now there’s a meaningful difference, and the biggest reason I switched from SL to SL2-S, despite losing the control setup I liked and the built in GPS. 

[dkCambridgeshire]

On 5/16/2025 at 10:25 AM, simon_hsn said:

The release of the Panasonic S1II cameras makes it increasingly clear that Leica may not be prioritizing the SL3-S as much as I hoped.

It’s almost absurd that the S1IIE — which uses the same sensor as the SL3-S and is essentially a SL3-S — costs around €2,400 less, yet offers more features, including internal ProRes RAW and more.

At an asking price of €5,200, I would have expected the SL3-S to come with a more advanced, partially stacked sensor — like the one in the S1II. Choosing the SL3-S over Panasonic’s offerings at this price point feels 100% irrational - Even the body is not so unique anymore like with the SL2-S or the original SL Type 601.

What I’d like to see from Leica now is a serious step up in terms of software. The last firmware update brought almost nothing new to the table. At the very least, features like internal ProRes RAW, AF improvements, HEIF image format, 60p without crop! should be added to justify the premium price.

In addition, Leica should invest in expanding their lens lineup—not by rebranding Panasonic or Sigma designs, but by creating more compact, original lenses that reflect the true Leica pedigree, much like their iconic M-series glass.

(Apologies for the rant — it’s just disheartening to see Leica fall so far behind.)

Designing and manufacturing a Leica lens (as distinct from a badge engineered Leica optic) takes many months – could be years  – plus the required testing period which can also take months. Leica Camera AG does not have the resources that e.g., Nikon and Canon have to develop new lenses. Regarding the alleged 'true' Leica pedigree, there can be significant third party input for any Leica lens – particularly L system AF lenses. 

[Jox]

The SL2S handled M lenses very well, at least up to 35mm. Well, with the 18mm, it started to feel a bit tight in the corners, but the center remained excellent.
We probably get the same results with the SL3S.
But it would be interesting, if a few photographers have been able to test it, to know if the semi-stacked sensor of the very recent Lumix S1 II handles these beautiful little M lenses as well (up to what focal length, up to what aperture, etc.).

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Jox said:

The SL2S handled M lenses very well, at least up to 35mm. Well, with the 18mm, it started to feel a bit tight in the corners, but the center remained excellent.
We probably get the same results with the SL3S.
But it would be interesting, if a few photographers have been able to test it, to know if the semi-stacked sensor of the very recent Lumix S1 II handles these beautiful little M lenses as well (up to what focal length, up to what aperture, etc.).

Summilux 24 M does very well too. It is one of my favourite lenses on the SL2S.
I am not convinced that a semi-stacked sensor is the best solution for M lenses without special microlenses etc. It seems to me that the well depth would be a handicap. 

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, Jox said:

The SL2S handled M lenses very well, at least up to 35mm. Well, with the 18mm, it started to feel a bit tight in the corners, but the center remained excellent.
We probably get the same results with the SL3S.
But it would be interesting, if a few photographers have been able to test it, to know if the semi-stacked sensor of the very recent Lumix S1 II handles these beautiful little M lenses as well (up to what focal length, up to what aperture, etc.).

You're better off using the 18mm Lumix lens. I stopped using M lenses on the Panasonic.

[Planetwide]

On 5/24/2025 at 9:06 AM, Photoworks said:

does it make a difference to bring up these points if the current Leica 21, 28,35, and 50 don't perform as intended on non-Leica cameras?

What do we have left, 75, 90, 135.

Those lenses were never intended to used on non Leica camera's. Complaining about a camera's performance with an adapted, non branded lens is at best misleading, and does not reflect upon the camera. Panasonics S1R series are excellent with L series lenses, as they were designed to be. I would recommend a used SL3 to you, as it will yield the M lens performance that you are looking for. 

[Kim Dahl]

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On 1.8.2025 at 17:20, Jox said:

SL2S håndterede M-objektiver rigtig godt, i hvert fald op til 35 mm. Med 18 mm begyndte det at føles lidt stramt i hjørnerne, men midten forblev fremragende.
Vi får sandsynligvis de samme resultater med SL3S.
Men det ville være interessant, hvis et par fotografer har været i stand til at teste det, at vide, om den semi-stablede sensor i den helt nye Lumix S1 II også håndterer disse smukke små M-objektiver (op til hvilken brændvidde, op til hvilken blænde osv.).

Reidreviews.com (paid site but ok if you are a Leica user/buyer) has tested the SL3-S and the conclusion is that the SL3-S DOES NOT take care of correct color korrektions in (old) Leica lenses. !! (often magenta sticks to the hat) 

But it can be fixed in a firmware update if Leica wants to and prioritizes it.

They should do that otherwise one of the advantages of the SL series will disappear.

I hope it's not because Leica now wants to separate the two series…. 

[Planetwide]

I don't have Reid reviews. IS he talking about sensor bloom or Magenta CA? they are different.

[SrMi]

14 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

Reidreviews.com (paid site but ok if you are a Leica user/buyer) has tested the SL3-S and the conclusion is that the SL3-S DOES NOT take care of correct color korrektions in (old) Leica lenses. !! (often magenta sticks to the hat) 

But it can be fixed in a firmware update if Leica wants to and prioritizes it.

They should do that otherwise one of the advantages of the SL series will disappear.

I hope it's not because Leica now wants to separate the two series…. 

Wasn't that fixed in a firmware update?

[Photoworks]

On 8/6/2025 at 10:25 AM, Kim Dahl said:

Reidreviews.com (paid site but ok if you are a Leica user/buyer) has tested the SL3-S and the conclusion is that the SL3-S DOES NOT take care of correct color korrektions in (old) Leica lenses. !! (often magenta sticks to the hat) 

But it can be fixed in a firmware update if Leica wants to and prioritizes it.

They should do that otherwise one of the advantages of the SL series will disappear.

I hope it's not because Leica now wants to separate the two series…. 

You say Leica should wing it?

Leica is a German conservative company. Lens corrections are applied in camera for lenses that have been recognized from 6 bit by the camera.

Anything else you have to deal with it in post.

[jdlaing]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

You say Leica should wing it?

Leica is a German conservative company. Lens corrections are applied in camera for lenses that have been recognized from 6 bit by the camera.

Anything else you have to deal with it in post.

Or selected from the menu in absence of the 6 bit code.

[Kim Dahl]

- It is important that Leica improves the Leica SL3-S (SL3) firmware so that it more effectively corrects the cyan drift that occurs especially with wide-angle lenses paired with digital cameras. This is what he writes. (read: reidreviews page) -

So these are the corrections with "old" Leica lenses that do not work properly.

The article was published 31/07/25 tested with firmware from that day.

The error can be corrected in a firmware update but has not been done yet.

But I wonder why it has not been done from the start ? 

It could seem as if Leica does not focus on SL as an M lens subelement further ? 

Maybe M EVF should take over that position?

Edited August 10 by Kim Dahl

[jaapv]

I’m not sure whether this is really a priority as the lenses in question will smear the corners on any camera but an M anyway, even with the special microlenses that slightly mitigate the problem on  an SL. 

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

It could seem as if Leica does not focus on SL as an M lens subelement further ? 

Maybe M EVF should take over that position?

They are always looking for qualified people. Are you?

Anyway, if you have a lens that has problems, a lens that was intended for film, why not get one that works? There are so many!

 

[Kim Dahl]

For Leica, it probably won't be a problem to put the same firmware correction in their SL models as in their M. That way, the SL series will still be the second best camera after the M. That will be one best selling point.

[CptSlevin]

On 8/11/2025 at 10:54 AM, Kim Dahl said:

For Leica, it probably won't be a problem to put the same firmware correction in their SL models as in their M. That way, the SL series will still be the second best camera after the M. That will be one best selling point.

They are not interested.
SL nowadays is an unloved child of the family.

Q and M get all the love

[jaapv]

The SL forums are pretty lively. 

[jaapv]

On 8/11/2025 at 9:54 AM, Kim Dahl said:

For Leica, it probably won't be a problem to put the same firmware correction in their SL models as in their M. That way, the SL series will still be the second best camera after the M. That will be one best selling point.

They can’t. Different sensor configurations will produce different aberrations. 

[Archiver]

On 8/12/2025 at 11:40 PM, jaapv said:

They can’t. Different sensor configurations will produce different aberrations. 

I wonder if this means that each new sensor/camera - for example M10 vs M10R vs M11, and SL2 vs SL2S vs SL3 - requires different and separate sets of Leica lens corrections.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[harbelot]

My 2 cents, coming from a S5II and having switched to the SL-2S, I don't care about the tech specs.
I came for the body's design, and most of all for the shooting experience.
The SL2-S is a joy to use, the Panasonic was a pain : even the shutter button sucked on the Pana (it was clicky and loose at the same time).

It's  totally irrational and personal, but shooting is personal. 
I sold my Leica Q to buy the S5II at the time, and I regret it each day.

 

Lesson learned.