New Full Frame Camera?

[Chris W]

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Does anyone offer a full frame camera, with viewfinder (or EVF), simple menu, not a blizzard of knobs and sliders on the body, mechanical shutter option?

Compact, but good quality lenses available.

I was waiting for a Q3 35, and they did a 43 instead. I'm not sure I prefer 40mm+ to 35mm.

I was hoping Sigma would release an FP with mechanical shutter and EVF, but no.

I like my Hasselblad X1DII, but the 45p lens is F4, a bit slow for low light and the other system lenses are $$$$.

I guess I'm headed to an SL2-S with Sigma contemporary lens, but having owned an SL I thought it was quite bulky.

Have I missed a camera? 

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[jaapv]

It is indeed the same bulk, but it feels more lithe than the original SL. I can recommend the Panasonic 35/1.8. 

[LocalHero1953]

M. Matches your criteria exactly.

Just stating the obvious.

But I guess you want AF? Or an EVF, not an OVF?

[3D-Kraft.com]

You could wait for May, when the M11-V (with EVF) materializes or M or Pixii, when you prefer OVF.

If it should be also compact, the Sony A7CII or A7CR are excellent options that allow you to adapt M lenses also with an autofocus adapter. But perhaps too many knobs (or not a sufficiently luxurious brand name)?

[Chris W]

The compact Sony's do not have mechanical shutter.

[Chris W]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

M. Matches your criteria exactly.

 

I have the M10. Yes, agreed.

Although I cycle a lot and want something less prone to focus misalignment (due to bumps) and also something maybe a little less expensive (than modern M and lens).

[jankap]

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Is f/4 really slow? Would f/2.8 make a large difference? The X1D has a sensor in medium format! Do you use postprocessing?

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Edited March 30 by jaapv
copyrighted material removed

[Chris W]

I think it ends up f3.5 (35mm equivalent). I dunno, added to the larger form factor and medium format sensor I've ended up with quite a few blurred images.

Yes, I post process. Another reason I'd like to move on from the X1DII, it isn't compatible with Capture One, my preferred photo processor.

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, Chris W said:

Yes, I post process. Another reason I'd like to move on from the X1DII, it isn't compatible with Capture One, my preferred photo processor.

Valid point. My main reason why I’m not investigating digital Hasselblad bodies.

20 hours ago, Chris W said:

I guess I'm headed to an SL2-S with Sigma contemporary lens, but having owned an SL I thought it was quite bulky.

Yes, somewhat bulky. But the results leave no questions and the cameras are now relatively cheap. Similar things can be said about the Sigma 35mm f/2 Contemporary. It renders much better images than one might anticipate for the price. Also, the AF is snappy and accurate if set to AF-S. 

Lastly, as you own an M System, your M lenses will work ok with the SL2-S.  And it’s a convincing design in its own right. I own one and see no reason to upgrade to whatever digital body. But I don’t photograph birds or sports. Anything else can the SL-S do as any other mirrorless in the market. The EVF, BTW, is second to (almost) none. 

[Chris W]

My two main genres are travel and music photography. The latter involves a lot of low light work.

Actually, the Zeiss ZX-1 is right up my street, but not at the original starting price. One sold last week for £1800, which is more in line with my budget.

 

[pgk]

I use a Sony A7II which is almost always switched to Manual. Doing so enables much simpler operation (front dial aperture, rear dial shutter speed) and I switch off most viewfinder data options (I find the histogram handy). Its not an elegant way of working but its relatively straightforward and cheap.

[JoshuaR]

There are lots of people on this forum who use the SL cameras for the type of stuff you describe (travel and music photography) and really love them. 

I also own an SL2-S and shoot it alongside my Ms for those kinds of purposes -- basically, wet weather and performances. For wet weather I have the Panasonic 20-60 and for performances I use M mount 90mm and 135mm lenses.

Yet while I really like the camera, and the images it produces, I also struggle with the weight and form factor. There are two things in particular that aren't working for me. First, it's just bigger than I'd like. The M is so small that I can bring it everywhere, even in a pocket, and rarely feel burdened or too conspicuous; that's not the case with the SL. Second, there's the body style. If I shoot two-handed, using my left hand to manual focus, does it make sense for me to have a big grip for my right hand? For me the answer has turned out to be no. It's just overkill (and a bit of a killjoy). So while I love the images out of the camera—especially the colors, which are beautiful, even in low light—I rarely take it out of the house.

So, what are the alternatives? I've spent a decent amount of time at B&H handling all the full frame cameras. The bottom line is that they're all pretty big—even the Nikon Zf is actually quite large—with the exception of the tiny Sony cameras, which are very electronic. My favorite so far has been the Nikon Z6iii. That's a camera I could actually see buying. The Zf is also very nice, but the Z6iii has a no-blackout viewfinder (and very fast electronic readout speed), which is really attractive to me for fast-moving scenarios. The Nikons are lighter, and it makes a big difference. But it's a whole different system, and it's hardly "casual" in the way an M can be. I think if I go that direction I'll regret it.

Another option I'm taking very seriously is moving back to Fujifilm for an AF, rough-and-tumble camera. It would be very easy for me to sell my SL2-S body and lenses and get an XT-4 or X-Pro3 with a "Fujicron" lens or two and a long zoom. I shot Fuji X-mount for many years, and while there is an image-quality difference vs. full frame, I think those cameras hit my personal sweet spot of combining M-like size with weather resistance and autofocus and good IQ. And I like that the system is more affordable. Years ago I owned an X-Pro3 with a 23/2 and 50/2 (35mm and 75mm equivalents) and I could easily re-buy that and add a 50-140 (70-200-e) and be done. And the system would be small, light, and comparatively cheap.

There are the Leica Qs, of course, and the new Fuji GFX100RF. All pretty compelling, but very pricey for what will be a secondary system for me.

And my final option is just to stick with the M system. There's a reason I ended up there in the first place, and it has a lot to do with the combination of size and image quality. So I might be simply selling the SL2-S kit and sticking with the M system and its quirks.

All that said: overall, my current intuition is that I'd get some mileage out of a Fujifilm X-mount camera as my bad-weather-and-zooms setup, and there's a good chance I'll head back in that direction. If you want to add autofocus and keep the camera small, something has to give, and the move from full-frame to APS-C for a camera I'll use only occasionally might be the right idea.

Edited March 31 by JoshuaR

[Chris W]

Joshua,

Thanks for the extremely detailed post. Much appreciated.

You have articulated what I feel about the SL system, although I only ever had a first generation SL, but returned it to the store after about a week. Just too big and I wasn't blown away by the image quality (which could have been a defective camera).

I used an X100T for a few years then 'upgraded' to an XT-4. I just found all the bells and whistles got in my way. When I bought a Q, then the SL, I immediately preferred the body layout and the menu system. So sold all my Fuji stuff. I can't see going back.

I'm not going to leave the M system, I just need something that is bombproof and similarly light, simple to use for cycling tours. Off road you really are shaken about on the bike and I've had annoying issues with rangefinder alignment going out in the past.

Edited March 31 by Chris W

[JoshuaR]

@Chris W, I found this recent post at The Online Photographer helpful. It's a discussion of the small Sony rangefinder-style full-frame cameras, and the comments section is full of people describing their small full-frame setups.

Another approach I've been considering is Micro Four Thirds. There are a lot of very cheap MFT cameras and lenses, the systems are small and in many cases very physically tough, and many have very simple designs. The new OM-3 is appealing, but so are some of the older Panasonic bodies. The channel Micro Four Nerds has a lot of videos (like this one) that have made me think about that approach. In my case, it's not scenarios like cycling, but more like sledding with my small kids. The idea of a relatively inexpensive pocketable camera with good image quality and autofocus and oodles of weather sealing is very appealing. . . . .

I also have a Ricoh GR IIIx. Amazing quality, very small, but not tough and with no EVF. I have a love-hate relationship with it, as with the SL2-S. I'd probably sell mine, but it has dust on the sensor (a common problem with fixed-lens cameras with extendable lenses). But that might be something worth considering, too.

[Chris W]

Has to have an EVF.

[Ko.Fe.]

7 hours ago, Chris W said:

Has to have an EVF.

The only camera I'm finding to be alternative to digital M is Nikon ZF.

Almost same weight as SL3-S, but Nikon is ahead of entire L consortium on compact, AF lenses.

Sony A7 series have even smaller third party lenses, but I already have Toyota.   

[Chris W]

I have a few L Mount lenses, which pushes me towards an SL2-S, but yeah, there are some very high quality Nikon lenses that are still affordable. Some lovely vintage Nikon.

Edited April 1 by Chris W

[lct]

On 3/31/2025 at 1:46 PM, Chris W said:

[...] Has to have an EVF [...]

On 3/31/2025 at 12:42 PM, Chris W said:

[...] I'm not going to leave the M system [...]

I would wait and see the rumored EVF-M aka M11-V.

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Hallo,

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[Chris W]

I'm happy with the M system as it is.

It is more about having a low light, slightly cheaper camera for travel.

At the moment my favourite is the SL2-S.

[algrove]

On 3/30/2025 at 7:16 AM, Chris W said:

Does anyone offer a full frame camera, with viewfinder (or EVF), simple menu, not a blizzard of knobs and sliders on the body, mechanical shutter option?

Compact, but good quality lenses available.

I was waiting for a Q3 35, and they did a 43 instead. I'm not sure I prefer 40mm+ to 35mm.

I was hoping Sigma would release an FP with mechanical shutter and EVF, but no.

I like my Hasselblad X1DII, but the 45p lens is F4, a bit slow for low light and the other system lenses are $$$$.

I guess I'm headed to an SL2-S with Sigma contemporary lens, but having owned an SL I thought it was quite bulky.

Have I missed a camera? 

You can set your Q3 (@*) to record at 35mm FL  if you do not like the Q343-BUT it does have an APO lens