M4 vs. M4-2 and M4-P

[Deeetona]

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Is it just me, or are -2 and -P versions really commanding higher (asking) prices?

I read on several websites and blogs that especially the -P is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel M camera, e.g. https://leicaphilia.com/category/leica-m4/

Made in Canada, stamped logo on zinc top plate...

But looking at auction sites, or Leica's own "Classic" website, things seem to be different. Why? Because many people prefer the (Model name+suffix) to (Model name) variant of a product?

Because they are younger?

Edited January 20 by Deeetona

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[ktmrider2]

I have not looked at M4 prices recently but traditionally the M4 is considered by many Leica fans as the last of the best made cameras by being hand built by craftsmen.  The M4-2 was an attempt by Leica to survive the M5 debacle so they cheapened the building process by going to stamped parts, removing a condenser lens from the rangefinder, moving production to Canada etc.  

I owned both M4-2 and M4-P from new.  I never knew about the differences back then and bought the cameras because I really liked rangefinders compared to my Nikon’s I had used professionally.  Also, I never had any complaints about either of the cameras.  I don’t think the cult had spread yet or maybe I had not drank the cool aid yet.  My guess is new Leica M4-2 and M4-P buyers do so because the cameras are ten to twenty years newer than the classic M4 and that may be driving up prices.  And they do not know that they are buying the “cheapened Leica models”.

I did not get my first M4 until 2010.  I think I always considered it to be the “best” non metered body but I owned from new M4-2, M4-P, M6 and M6TTL.  My favorite film M to this day is the M2 due to the single frame lines.  I like modern film loading and rewind of the M4 and later models.  I came across a mint black chrome 50th anniversary M4 about ten years ago and used it as my main camera until I broke down last year and purchased a new MP.  I purchased it simply because it had been 25 years since I bought a new Leica.  I cannot justify two film bodies so I sold the M4 for way more than I paid for it.  Do not look at prices for black paint M4’s as they can cause heart attacks even in the inflated prices of the cult of Leica.

I think the classic M4 is the best of the M4 trio.  I never got around to removing the 135 frame lines since they are so small so I would essentially have an M2 finder.  I will probably keep my one year old MP for a long time but I did come across several M2R’s in Bangkok in December and was tempted (favorite viewfinder and modern film loading) but they are rare and command a price almost equal to a new MP.  And I ended up buying a Leica Q3 at the same camera shop so my camera budget was used for that.

You may want to get your M4 CLA’ed just for peace of mind.  It may very well not need it but you will know when it was “zeroed out” as it were.  Then shoot it for twenty years or so and then think about having it done again.  Have fun with your camera.  I have been using them since 1975 (Leica CL).  The only model I never really connected with is the M3.  I owned one for about a year before selling.  I much prefer the .72 viewfinder but I know M3 fans who would not have anything but the .91 viewfinder.

And if you really want to try a different kettle of fish, look at the jewel like screw mount Leicas but you have been warned!

Edited January 20 by ktmrider2

[davidmknoble]

So, be careful what you read.  The early M4-P’s were made of brass tops and bottoms. After the introduction of the M6, they changed to zinc.  In addition, it depends on the body.  I have a beautiful early M4-P in brass, that was completely overhauled by Leica  Germany and has a new Leica MP viewfinder, except for the outside window which is different.  It does command a higher price than a typical M-4, but only because of the condition and what was done to it.  Some prefer the additional 75mm viewfinder window as well.  It really just depends. 

[cesc]

Yesterday I just picked up an M4 because I came across a great deal—couldn’t pass it up, especially since it came with a Summaron 35mm f/2.8. I’ve had an M6, M3, and M2 in the past, and I’ve regretted selling the M2 ever since. The M4 feels like a perfect replacement, and honestly, it’s surprising how similar it is to my MP, even though I spent so much more on that (bought new in 2023). The bright, contrasty viewfinder is just as good, and the build quality is top-notch. I’ve also heard the M4 is considered the last M body that was truly "well-made", I just feel it's a great M body. My own opinión here

[Deeetona]

Thank you all. Wonderful posts! 

I often make wrong decisions, but this time, buying a M4 from the internet in whim, once in life I got lucky, both with the decision and with the actual camera.

Yes, the M4-P is much younger, and mostly available in black, which seems to be a "thing" for many people. From that perspective it makes sense.

But I am enjoying my little new family member:-)

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Deeetona said:

 

Yes, the M4-P is much younger, and mostly available in black, which seems to be a "thing" for many people. From that perspective it makes sense.

 

And the M4-P has six framelines and is built robust enough to take a motor drive. If it's cheaper based on having 'more' that is an indicator of the idiocy of the market. It is Leica's saviour camera and with a meter added it became the M6, although in the day production continued after the M6 was released because professional photographers liked it so much. All comments about the M4 being 'better' are made from the comfy armchair of hindsight and not needing a camera that pays the bills day-in-day-out.

[Fotoklaus]

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All the rumors about "cheap" production in Canada and lesser quality are rumors as old as the cameras themselves.

In my opinion the model is not the important thing. It is it´s condition. M4-2s are now over 45 years old, M4-Ps about 45.

It is funny to read those comaprisons like they where brought up on the market yesterday.

Most of the Ms had been serviced ore overhauled over the decades, so what?

Which gears might brake earlier? Those after 45 or those after 60 years? Will i get Zinc bubbles after 40 years?

All hypothetical questions.

[Deeetona]

Looking at it that way, how much "older" is 59-50 (age range of a M4) compared to 47-40 (range of subsequent models)? 

[sblitz]

When you hold an M4 and then hear the shutter when you take the picture, you will understand. 

Edited January 24 by sblitz

[cesc]

6 hours ago, sblitz said:

When you hold an M4 and then hear the shutter when you take the picture, you will understand. 

On my M4 the 1/15th sounds like a claqué dance move. I CANNOT stop shooting at this lower speed. The MP has a more mechanical sound. Ok, both take the same pictures... Just the sound is classic music Vs rock and roll

[hansvons]

On 1/21/2025 at 8:58 AM, 250swb said:

All comments about the M4 being 'better' are made from the comfy armchair of hindsight and not needing a camera that pays the bills day-in-day-out.

Yes, I couldn't agree more and couldn't care less. My only questions about film Ms are: How recent is the CLA, who did it, do the camera's handling and features support my shooting style, and does it make me go out and shoot?

 

On 1/21/2025 at 1:18 PM, Fotoklaus said:

Will i get Zinc bubbles after 40 years?

 

My M4-P is an early model I bought freshly CLA-ed for well under 2K a few years ago. Its top and bottom plates are brass, so there is no zinc bubbling. There is also no brassing because the anodised black surface is hyper-solid. It has that one-step shutter release all meter-less M have, which is better for slow shutter speeds when using a soft-release button.

So why is there no M4 for me? I also own an M6, which does most of the work. I like having the same user experience, as no mental adjustment requirements are vital to me. I also will say that cocking the M4-P's shutter and releasing it is slightly more satisfying compared to the M6, which is about 8 years younger and also saw a recent CLA at a different shop. Why is that? Very likely, it's due to sample variation, other lubrication and adjustments, etc.  

 

On 1/20/2025 at 10:24 PM, Deeetona said:

I read on several websites and blogs that especially the -P is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel M camera, e.g. https://leicaphilia.com/category/leica-m4/

Made in Canada, stamped logo on zinc top plate...

Discussing which M model is the best is moot, in my opinion. Leica did a wonderful job developing a delicately diverse M-camera universe with offerings to many different tastes and no lemon model, going full circle with the M-A and the 2022 M6. Made in Canada is as good as is made in Germany. One can even argue that the Canadian Leica branch saved the German mothership with innovative products (Walter Mandler worked in Canada) when the M4-P was released. For me, a brass M4-P represents the pinnacle of Leica cameras at that time. Others will argue the M4 is the "best", the M2 or the M3, and so on. 

However, the 2022 M6 is probably the "best" Leica M when usability and durability are the focus, money is no objection, and it doesn't scratch the film (many "ifs"). Then, there is the M7 with its aperture-priority shutter, which is even more versatile regarding exposure.

The M merry-go-round will never stop.

Edited January 25 by hansvons

[TomB_tx]

58 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Yes, I couldn't agree more and couldn't care less. My only questions about film Ms are: How recent is the CLA, who did it, do the camera's handling and features support my shooting style, and does it make me go out and shoot?

I fully agree with this. I bought my M4 in 1968 - my first Leica - so it holds a special spot for me, but through the years I’ve added 2 M3s, M2, M5, M6 (in 1985), M6 .85, and recently M7. I also have quite a collection of R models, so several zinc top plates. None of my zinc tops show any signs of bubbling or degradation - they all have held up just as well as the brass models. 

I’m happy with whichever I choose to use. Most differences in feel may be less attributable to model and more due to sample variation, except for the differences in meter activation in the shutter button. I actually appreciate the 2-stage feel of the metered buttons as it avoids some accidental oops exposures while metering, and with the M7 locking the exposure while reframing. My M5 requires the deepest press of the shutter as the button movement gradually swings the meter cell away to avoid the vibration of a snap movement. That’s the only one where a small soft release button resides.

[davidmknoble]

I agree with much said here - the M film cameras all work really well and it’s the act of shooting that makes it so much fun.  Meter built in or not, you still have to measure light and make decisions. 

The one caveat I have is the M6ttl and the M7.  I enjoy shooting the R8/R9 because the matrix metering is really good and it is easy to adjust the exposure +/- with a lever on the back.  However, the M6ttl and M7 have shutter speed dials backwards from all other film M’s (don’t know much about the M5, never appealed to me, so unsure of its dial rotation).

I have a hard time switching to one of those bodies because I go in the wrong direction to adjuste exposure.  Even the digital M’s go in the ‘right’ direction along with the M3-M6 and MP/MA.  I’m glad Leica has kept that consistant for the most part.

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I agree with much said here - the M film cameras all work really well and it’s the act of shooting that makes it so much fun.  Meter built in or not, you still have to measure light and make decisions. 

The one caveat I have is the M6ttl and the M7.  I enjoy shooting the R8/R9 because the matrix metering is really good and it is easy to adjust the exposure +/- with a lever on the back.  However, the M6ttl and M7 have shutter speed dials backwards from all other film M’s (don’t know much about the M5, never appealed to me, so unsure of its dial rotation).

I have a hard time switching to one of those bodies because I go in the wrong direction to adjuste exposure.  Even the digital M’s go in the ‘right’ direction along with the M3-M6 and MP/MA.  I’m glad Leica has kept that consistant for the most part.

I guess I don't notice the speed dial on my M7 as I use it in primarily Auto, which is what I got it for with my aging hands and memory. For manual exposure I use usually an M6. I also prefer the M3-M6 traditional shutter speed direction - it's what I'm used to. But I typically set the speed for the general conditions, then trim exposure with the aperture.

[Deeetona]

Because of all this banter, I now want a black M4-P!

[kiwidad]

On 1/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, ktmrider2 said:

I have not looked at M4 prices recently but traditionally the M4 is considered by many Leica fans as the last of the best made cameras by being hand built by craftsmen.  The M4-2 was an attempt by Leica to survive the M5 debacle so they cheapened the building process by going to stamped parts, removing a condenser lens from the rangefinder, moving production to Canada etc.  

I owned both M4-2 and M4-P from new.  I never knew about the differences back then and bought the cameras because I really liked rangefinders compared to my Nikon’s I had used professionally.  Also, I never had any complaints about either of the cameras.  I don’t think the cult had spread yet or maybe I had not drank the cool aid yet.  My guess is new Leica M4-2 and M4-P buyers do so because the cameras are ten to twenty years newer than the classic M4 and that may be driving up prices.  And they do not know that they are buying the “cheapened Leica models”.

I did not get my first M4 until 2010.  I think I always considered it to be the “best” non metered body but I owned from new M4-2, M4-P, M6 and M6TTL.  My favorite film M to this day is the M2 due to the single frame lines.  I like modern film loading and rewind of the M4 and later models.  I came across a mint black chrome 50th anniversary M4 about ten years ago and used it as my main camera until I broke down last year and purchased a new MP.  I purchased it simply because it had been 25 years since I bought a new Leica.  I cannot justify two film bodies so I sold the M4 for way more than I paid for it.  Do not look at prices for black paint M4’s as they can cause heart attacks even in the inflated prices of the cult of Leica.

I think the classic M4 is the best of the M4 trio.  I never got around to removing the 135 frame lines since they are so small so I would essentially have an M2 finder.  I will probably keep my one year old MP for a long time but I did come across several M2R’s in Bangkok in December and was tempted (favorite viewfinder and modern film loading) but they are rare and command a price almost equal to a new MP.  And I ended up buying a Leica Q3 at the same camera shop so my camera budget was used for that.

You may want to get your M4 CLA’ed just for peace of mind.  It may very well not need it but you will know when it was “zeroed out” as it were.  Then shoot it for twenty years or so and then think about having it done again.  Have fun with your camera.  I have been using them since 1975 (Leica CL).  The only model I never really connected with is the M3.  I owned one for about a year before selling.  I much prefer the .72 viewfinder but I know M3 fans who would not have anything but the .91 viewfinder.

And if you really want to try a different kettle of fish, look at the jewel like screw mount Leicas but you have been warned!

The rangefinder change on m4-2 was made during production and I own one before the change. 

I am not sure the word cheapen is an accurate characterization. Leica determined that more modern part manufacture could save costs. The stamped parts didn’t require being honed down to spec during assembly and made the camera less costly to repair. 
 

did it make it any less a Leica? I mean is a Canada summicron a worse lens than the made in Germany one? I haven’t seen anyone come up with the goods on that answer and have always considered it just snobbery!

[ktmrider2]

I have never said the M4-2 or M4-P were inferior cameras to the M4.  However, the steps Leica took in the manufacturing process were to save money as they were on the ropes from the M5 and Japanese SLR’s.  In many ways, the M4-2 saved the company and it set Leica on its path of making the body form of the M3/M2/M4 sacred.  The MA and MP would not exist in their present form without the M4-2.

Edited January 26 by ktmrider2

[leo_mm]

While people often say that “early” M4-Ps have brass top plates, the implication being that the majority of M4-Ps were later models that used zinc top plates, my sense is that actually the large majority of M4-Ps (and of course all M4-2s) used brass top plates, and the late zinc top examples are comparatively rare. 

Anyway if people are valuing M4-Ps more highly than M4s I suspect it is a combination of (1) they’re often a decade newer, (2) they’re affordable in black, and (3) they have 28mm framelines which many like. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[davidmknoble]

On 1/29/2025 at 1:37 AM, leo_mm said:

my sense is that actually the large majority of M4-Ps (and of course all M4-2s) used brass top plates, and the late zinc top examples are comparatively rare.

According to the WIKI, the brass was changed to zinc when the M6 came out.  The M4-P was made about 1980-1986 and the M6 came out in 1984.  So, it may not be rare, but it does seem likely that there are less in zinc than brass?

[Eli4-2]

The M4-2 and M4-P have plastic pieces in their sync ports which tend to break, so that's one thing to keep in mind. They do have a hot shoe though which is great.