Leica SL3-S: ‘More light’ – The Unbearable Lightness of Being

[hdmesa]

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5 hours ago, AndyAV said:

I have all three SL3, SL2-S and now SL3-S. What I can share now, as a former user of Sony Alpha series, as well as former Canon RF series, and also former Panasonic professional shooter, SL3-S punches well above Canon and Panasonic with the AF in iAF, AFC and AF-S. I was actually stunned to witness how accurate and prompt the SL3-S with the improved AF Ai over what was a hit and miss SL3 and even SL2-S AF. Now as it is, SL3-S is competing neck to neck with Sony Alpha (with GM lenses) on AF performance and I can totally trust it 100% for any sort of AF needs. Even when pitted against strong glare lights in extreme ISO in low light situation, SL3-S AF did not fail to impress.

You can check my video here on how crazily good the AF on SL3-S:

 

Sorry, but there’s no fucking way the SL3-S AFc is on par or exceeds Canon AF. How long has it been since you tried Canon? 5DM4? The SL3-S doesn’t even exceed the S5II, and the S5II is at least a generation behind the latest Canon AF. 

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[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Actually the Q is mainly Panasonic inside ( source: the late Erwin Puts in a private conversation) 

Hi Jaap

I think it's worth pointing out that cameras, like cars and most other products are made up with components from multiple companies, and manufacturing is not the same as specifying and design. I've no idea how much is made by whom (Erwin must have had better information than me) , but I'm very much aware that the relationship between Leica and Panasonic is two way, not simply a rebadging affair. . . . . mind you, I'm sure you know that, it's just it's worth mentioning!

. . . . I should be writing and not reading!

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb AndyAV:

Using the AFC with continuous half press does not inflict any blurred EVF view. The AFC will continue to track and the screen remained crisp

But what happens when you full press the shutter?

[LD_50]

36 minutes ago, Tjazz said:

This is a fun forum for watching the flow of spirited opinions on highly technical, heavily engineered equipment. I’m surprised how much secret IP data some have access to. A few thoughts. So if a Leica camera is a rebadged Panasonic, and some Leica lenses just reskinned Sigma, then buy the cheaper one, right? Should be no difference? If I buy a Bosch drill at a big box store like Home Depot and it has the same specs as the more expensive Bosch drill at my local contractor store, why pay more? If Chevrolet uses the ZF 8HP automatic transmission but so does an Aston Martin, kind of crazy to overspend, right? My point is obvious: the contractor Bosch drill has more metal inner construction, the Aston Martin is a little better than a Chevy, and to me, a Leica lens gives me better IQ and color than a Sigma. Design and engineering count when core commoditized components are used across brands. I love my Leica cameras and value their design and engineering, and the extra money is well worth it to me over cheaper brands with better lab specs. A truly proprietary, bespoke camera with hand crafted parts would cost multiple times what Leica charges.  I do think Leica invests and spends where it matters most. And yeah, it’s expensive. But for the price of a modest holiday week in London or Paris, I can have a camera that brings me long-term joy and satisfaction.  
PS I’ve ordered my SL3-S, trading in my SL2-S. Can’t wait for my marginally but noticeably more capable (where it matters to me) camera!

The car analogies rarely work well. Sharing the sensor is similar to the transmission example. Putting a different outer shell on a lens while using the same optical formula is more akin to Chevy Camaro vs Pontiac Firebird back when those cars were available, or Eagle Talon vs Mitsubishi Eclipse vs Plymouth Laser. 

It would be interesting to see the better IQ and color from Leica’s 24-70 vs the Sigma or Leica’s 50 f/2 ASPH vs Panasonic’s 50 f/1.8 or any of the other similar lenses. Have you seen comparisons somewhere you can point me to?
 

I see these lenses differently than Leica’s 90-280 which has been said to be Panasonic design (if I remember correctly) but has no cheaper Panasonic version. 

I wouldn’t even consider my opinion on this spirited. It’s just a preference. So far I’ve chosen only Leica lenses in L mount that don’t have a rebadged version in another. If I were to purchase a 70-200, I would consider the Leica but would prefer they explain the improvements made over the Sigma that account for the IQ and color improvements you referenced. Even without explanation if there were evidence of IQ improvements it may be enough to justify the cost. 

[tom0511]

Just because the SL3s might share sensor and af doesnt make it the same camera as a S5ii. User interface, processor, build quality, menue system,viewfinder, … back when I had a sl and a s1r I also found a sloght difference in color, and I believe to remember that not all lenses work the same iq, if used on panasonic vs leica bodies.

just my opinion.

I would wish they shared AF system with Canon though , haha

[Crem]

6 hours ago, AndyAV said:

I have all three SL3, SL2-S and now SL3-S. What I can share now, as a former user of Sony Alpha series, as well as former Canon RF series, and also former Panasonic professional shooter, SL3-S punches well above Canon and Panasonic with the AF in iAF, AFC and AF-S. I was actually stunned to witness how accurate and prompt the SL3-S with the improved AF Ai over what was a hit and miss SL3 and even SL2-S AF. Now as it is, SL3-S is competing neck to neck with Sony Alpha (with GM lenses) on AF performance and I can totally trust it 100% for any sort of AF needs. Even when pitted against strong glare lights in extreme ISO in low light situation, SL3-S AF did not fail to impress.

You can check my video here on how crazily good the AF on SL3-S:

 

I'll check out your video, but what I'm most curious about is real world AFC tracking. In general, I don't trust YouTubers that get pre-production units and clearly have an incentive to avoid harsh words. On a properly configured Sony this is what I experience...

stills:
Point the expandable flexible spot at anything (face, eye, random moving object, animal, etc)... hold down the AF On button (back button focus)... and recompose as much as I want. If the subject is human and spins around, etc it doesn't matter. The tracking just figures it out. I leave a modern Sony in AFC with eye tracking on and tracks just about anything. For really busy scenes (tons of people) I sometimes assign eye tracking to a separate button from AF On so I can separate face/eye tracking vs object tracking. 

video:
I use touch tracking with the rear LCD to compose the frame and lock on focus. I touch just about anything (face, moving object, etc). It just works. With the native linear motor lenses I don't detect any focus pulsing, motor noise in the audio, etc. Again a very magical experience and I leave the camera in AFC all the time.

In all the above cases the battery lasts a long time. I keep one spare battery, but it's mostly for when I forget to charge the one in camera. If the SL3-S auto focus usability is on par with Sony I'll happily sell my Sony kit and upgrade my SL2-S to the SL3-S.

Can you confirm if it works as well as I said above? I still plan on upgrading my SL2-S to a SL3-S because it's my favorite M lens compatible camera. I just really hope I can also sell the Sony kit.

Edited January 17 by Crem

[Dazzajl]

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28 minutes ago, Crem said:

Can you confirm if it works as well as I said above?

I will eat my hat if it’s anywhere close to Sony standards. Then I’ll go and add one to our work kit. ☺️

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jaap

I think it's worth pointing out that cameras, like cars and most other products are made up with components from multiple companies, and manufacturing is not the same as specifying and design. I've no idea how much is made by whom (Erwin must have had better information than me) , but I'm very much aware that the relationship between Leica and Panasonic is two way, not simply a rebadging affair. . . . . mind you, I'm sure you know that, it's just it's worth mentioning!

. . . . I should be writing and not reading!

Oh yes you are spot-on. I had a Jaguar on a shortened Mondeo base, but it was in nothing like a Ford  I think that both Leica and Panasonic profit by the cooperation. I just bought a LUMIX S 35/1.8. The only thing Leica did was reduce it to 2.0 to get rid of minor corner unsharpness. ( which simply stopping down does as well) and give it a metal Leica housing which feels and looks fantastic and call it Summicron. However I don’t like the added weight compared to Pana’s composite and they lost the well-placed AF-MF switch so I actually prefer the el-cheapo version. Saving  over 1500 Euro was no hardship either. But I am sure that Leica was involved in the basic optical design given the quality. 

[Crem]

40 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

I will eat my hat if it’s anywhere close to Sony standards. Then I’ll go and add one to our work kit. ☺️

Agreed... I watched the posted video and did not get a clear understanding that it has hit that level. On a plus note the camera seems much better at recording Youtube talking head style video vs previous generations. 

Edited January 17 by Crem

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, LD_50 said:

The car analogies rarely work well. Sharing the sensor is similar to the transmission example. Putting a different outer shell on a lens while using the same optical formula is more akin to Chevy Camaro vs Pontiac Firebird back when those cars were available, or Eagle Talon vs Mitsubishi Eclipse vs Plymouth Laser.

I agree about car analogies. I try to avoid them, but sometimes they are the first thing that comes to mind!

I think that almost every large RWD car or truck, from Rolls Royce to Ram, used the same ZF 8-speed transmission for a good part of this century. You can't swap them between brands, and they are programmed differently, and of course the cars/trucks are very different. It's a proven and reliable component, so why not use it? The funniest similar example was a comparison of the interiors of a no-frills European sub-compact (I think it was a French brand) with the then-current S Class. They come from the same supplier and are made by the same workers in the same factory!

 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Tjazz said:

This is a fun forum for watching the flow of spirited opinions on highly technical, heavily engineered equipment that they have never seen.

Completed your sentence for you😉.

[LD_50]

30 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I agree about car analogies. I try to avoid them, but sometimes they are the first thing that comes to mind!

I think that almost every large RWD car or truck, from Rolls Royce to Ram, used the same ZF 8-speed transmission for a good part of this century. You can't swap them between brands, and they are programmed differently, and of course the cars/trucks are very different. It's a proven and reliable component, so why not use it? The funniest similar example was a comparison of the interiors of a no-frills European sub-compact (I think it was a French brand) with the then-current S Class. They come from the same supplier and are made by the same workers in the same factory!

 

Transmission being shared is like sensor being shared. You can’t actually swap them but they share most of the parts.

If comparing two lenses with different outer barrels, you’re more similar to two cars with same transmission, same engine, same chassis, same axles, same cooling system, same electronics, but a different body and a few different trim parts on the interior (like the Eclipse/Talon example). 

On that note the 92 Talon I owned as my second car was a horrible mix of Chrysler and Mitsubishi parts. What a piece of junk. I’m glad the Leica / Panasonic partnership is on the high quality end of the spectrum!

[BernardC]

5 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

If comparing two lenses with different outer barrels, you’re more similar to two cars with same transmission, same engine, same chassis, same axles, same cooling system, same electronics, but a different body and a few different trim parts on the interior (like the Eclipse/Talon example). 

Except that we don't know if the difference is only skin deep. Take the 24-70/2.8. Lots of people were convinced that the Sigma and Leica are the same lens, even though the descriptions are different and the diagrams are different. Then Sigma released a v2 and the rear group looks more like Leica's zoom than Sigma's v1 (the rest of the groups are different). The description for Sigma's v2 is different again from the two others. Some people act like they work on the factory floor at Sigma and know exactly what's going on, but the truth is that we don't know. You can come-up with a plausible explanation for different scenarios, it's all just speculation. The only people who know for sure have signed NDAs.

[wjdrijfhout]

21 hours ago, Smogg said:

Leica isn't big enough to have multiple camera lines at the same time, so it's focused on two lines: the M as the flagship and the Q as the money maker. At the same time, it keeps the rest of its customers in its sphere of influence by rebadging the other camera lines. A very smart strategy.

It's hard to believe that Leica would not focus on the L-line of cameras (SL, TL, CL). The reality is 23 new lenses and 9 new camera bodies (not counting 'limited editions') in 10 years. But yes, they do make sure that each line is profitable, or they stop. Man, I would so have loved to see a TL3... 

And while this is happening, they are also developing a new medium format system (the fourth line). One could guess a kind of X2D competitor. For that they will also need a new lens line-up, as the current S-lenses won't be even close to what's needed. 

And this is just cameras. Add to that sports optics, home cinema, watches, mobile phones and eyeware and it is clear that Leica is not just a boutique camera shop primarily milking its legacy. This is a high-end optics manufacturer that does some smart strategic partnerships to be able to bring final products in the hands of users. Talking about smart: how about the L-mount alliance...

[didier]

3 hours ago, LD_50 said:

Leica’s 90-280 which has been said to be Panasonic design

First time I read this… the 90-280 came out at the very beginning of the SL series and is, AFAIK a ‘pure’ Leica Lens…

[LD_50]

54 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Except that we don't know if the difference is only skin deep. Take the 24-70/2.8. Lots of people were convinced that the Sigma and Leica are the same lens, even though the descriptions are different and the diagrams are different. Then Sigma released a v2 and the rear group looks more like Leica's zoom than Sigma's v1 (the rest of the groups are different). The description for Sigma's v2 is different again from the two others. Some people act like they work on the factory floor at Sigma and know exactly what's going on, but the truth is that we don't know. You can come-up with a plausible explanation for different scenarios, it's all just speculation. The only people who know for sure have signed NDAs.

I don’t recall that being how the 24-70 diagrams looked from v1 to v2. 
 

V1 diagram matched Leica. Leica on top, Sigma on bottom. Note the three aspherical elements match between the two (red outlines on Sigma). The design looks identical. It may not be of course. Maybe There are some different coatings or glass types or something else. Photo results between the two I recall matching when mounted on SL2 and with the software corrections applied on both.

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Sigma v2:

Note the two additional aspherical elements (again outlined in red). This now looks different than the Leica with that change. 

[LBJ2]

6 minutes ago, didier said:

First time I read this… the 90-280 came out at the very beginning of the SL series and is, AFAIK a ‘pure’ Leica Lens…

From what I understand not an unusual practice for some years now e.g., using a lens design, designed and patented by one company to create a camera lens for another, even in the high-end market e.g. Zeiss Batis/Tamron design patents according to "the internet" aka very similar situation. 

But also in the case of the SL 90-280 this is internet super sleuth data aka somebody found a Panasonic 90-280 patent what seems exact or very close to the SL 90-280 design. We may never know officially as I don't companies tend to advertise such things.

https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-patent-proves-designed-leica-sl-90-280mm-full-frame-lens/ 

[LD_50]

Removed because someone else posted the same info. 

Edited January 17 by LD_50

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[BernardC]

17 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

V1 diagram matched Leica. Leica on top, Sigma on bottom.

If you overlap the two you'll see that one has a larger diameter rear group. 

Sigma's v2 also has a larger diameter rear group than their v1. 

These are low-res line drawings of elements that have micron tolerances, but it's an interesting difference. The rest of the v1 and Leica overlap perfectly. 

The number and type of special elements also differ in product descriptions. That could be a mistake that was missed, or not. My point is that we don't know. 

[ALScott]

There has been little to no mention of the ISO doubling to 200,000 on the "same" sensor.  The "same" sensor as the S5II is 25% of that.  That's another reason I bought it.  Everyone here raves about the low light performance of the SL2-S, isn't doubling that capability a pretty significant improvement?