HPFM Posted January 16 Share #41 Posted January 16 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just back from the aannouncement in the german Store of Stuttgart. As awaited it was a Powerpoint Marketing presentation with the specs and some examples included…. The very interesting part came after the presentation and after my questions about specs on paper compared to real life… The guy who hold the presentation is specialiced on sports photography and showed us the results taken with the store-camera from a soccer game yesterday (for the interested of you-first league, VfB Stuttgart and RB Leipzig)… Shooting Iso 10.000, 1/1600 of a second, fps 15 and more: exiting results „picture for picture“, like a video, afc working superb! So personally i am convinced of the usability for wildlife shooting. My only and biggest problem will be to sell my SL2 (second body) for the Sl3-s in addition to my Sl3…. Prices are down so far that i fear i have to give it to the waste…sorry Leica😬😬 2 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 16 Posted January 16 Hi HPFM, Take a look here Leica SL3-S: ‘More light’ – The Unbearable Lightness of Being. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Markey Posted January 16 Share #42 Posted January 16 10 minutes ago, frankchn said: Leica is in the luxury segment of photographic equipment and they don't have to compete on having the "best" specifications if you can sell your products in other ways (build, heritage, etc...). Similarly, you don't see Hermes advertising the carrying capacity of their Kelly bags, or Rolls-Royce used to advertise their horsepower numbers as "enough". I`ve been using Leica since the eighties. I did think that especially with their Panasonic derived line that they were moving away from the luxury only market but I take your point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted January 16 Share #43 Posted January 16 4 minutes ago, HPFM said: Just back from the aannouncement in the german Store of Stuttgart. As awaited it was a Powerpoint Marketing presentation with the specs and some examples included…. The very interesting part came after the presentation and after my questions about specs on paper compared to real life… The guy who hold the presentation is specialiced on sports photography and showed us the results taken with the store-camera from a soccer game yesterday (for the interested of you-first league, VfB Stuttgart and RB Leipzig)… Shooting Iso 10.000, 1/1600 of a second, fps 15 and more: exiting results „picture for picture“, like a video, afc working superb! So personally i am convinced of the usability for wildlife shooting. My only and biggest problem will be to sell my SL2 (second body) for the Sl3-s in addition to my Sl3…. Prices are down so far that i fear i have to give it to the waste…sorry Leica😬😬 Thank you for the report! Do you happen to know if the photographer posted his SL3-S sports images on -line somewhere? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankchn Posted January 16 Share #44 Posted January 16 Just now, Markey said: I did think that especially with their Panasonic derived line that they were moving away from the luxury only market but I take your point. I think spec for spec the Leica SL line is priced at approximately 2-3x mainstream manufacturers (e.g. SL3 vs A7RV, SL3-S vs S5IIx), so to me it is still luxury-tier pricing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted January 16 Share #45 Posted January 16 27 minutes ago, pf4eva said: No, they'll be aiming to squeeze as much profit from you as possible with minimal R&D and CAPEX. Leica is too small a company to compete with industry giants, so they chose rebadging as a commercial strategy. This is quite normal if the financial results are satisfactory. But if they chose a strong manufacturer (Sigma) for lenses, they missed the mark a bit with cameras, choosing Panasonic, which is quite backward in terms of technology (it's a pity they didn't come to an agreement with Sony, it would have been a bomb camera). Leica is doing well in areas where there is no competition or minimal competition (M series and Q series). But there will be those who will buy the SL3/SL3-S if they are satisfied with the modest technologies it has (a gorgeous appearance and a user-friendly menu are very important factors for many). Therefore, constant comparisons in this forum with CaNiSo are pointless, they have different and practically non-intersecting sales markets. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 16 Share #46 Posted January 16 19 minutes ago, frankchn said: Leica is in the luxury segment of photographic equipment and they don't have to compete on having the "best" specifications if you can sell your products in other ways (build, heritage, etc...). Similarly, you don't see Hermes advertising the carrying capacity of their Kelly bags, or Rolls-Royce used to advertise their horsepower numbers as "enough". I consider all my Leica cameras to be the best photographic tools available for my use, not luxury items like Pateks. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankchn Posted January 16 Share #47 Posted January 16 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 minutes ago, SrMi said: I consider all my Leica cameras to be the best photographic tools available for my use, not luxury items like Pateks. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder I think. For me, Leica (especially the M and Q lines) provides a different photographic experience I am happy to pay for, but they are not necessarily better or worse than what I get out of my Canon for instance. For the SL, I basically treat the camera as a necessary expense for me to get access to the APO SL lens line up. Some watch aficionados might disagree with you about the Pateks too Edited January 16 by frankchn 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPFM Posted January 16 Share #48 Posted January 16 vor 3 Minuten schrieb LBJ2: Thank you for the report! Do you happen to know if the photographer posted his SL3-S sports images on -line somewhere? Sorry, i don’t think so. The guy is a Leica guy from the store and he probably didn‘t even had time to make any Lightroom-work… The pictures were out of cam, jpeg, but stunning. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebben Posted January 16 Share #49 Posted January 16 Can someone tell me if there is any thing substantial here that makes it better than the SL2-S beyond marketing gimmicks? It seems like the only real thing is the that Autofocus is a bit improved and the ProRes codec? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted January 16 Share #50 Posted January 16 11 minutes ago, Smogg said: Leica is too small a company to compete with industry giants, so they chose rebadging as a commercial strategy. This is quite normal if the financial results are satisfactory. But if they chose a strong manufacturer (Sigma) for lenses, they missed the mark a bit with cameras, choosing Panasonic, which is quite backward in terms of technology (it's a pity they didn't come to an agreement with Sony, it would have been a bomb camera). Leica is doing well in areas where there is no competition or minimal competition (M series and Q series). But there will be those who will buy the SL3/SL3-S if they are satisfied with the modest technologies it has (a gorgeous appearance and a user-friendly menu are very important factors for many). Therefore, constant comparisons in this forum with CaNiSo are pointless, they have different and practically non-intersecting sales markets. You wrote, " (it's a pity they didn't come to an agreement with Sony, it would have been a bomb camera)" I think you might want to run for cover! 🤣 OTOH, I think Leica and Sony are already working together in the M11, SL3, Q3, Q3-43, SL3-S...Sony Semiconductor Solutions that is. Personally, I fill my bag with both Leica and Sony gear--I don't want to miss a thing 😎 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 16 Share #51 Posted January 16 7 minutes ago, Smogg said: Leica is too small a company to compete with industry giants, so they chose rebadging as a commercial strategy. This is quite normal if the financial results are satisfactory. But if they chose a strong manufacturer (Sigma) for lenses, they missed the mark a bit with cameras, choosing Panasonic, which is quite backward in terms of technology (it's a pity they didn't come to an agreement with Sony, it would have been a bomb camera). Leica is doing well in areas where there is no competition or minimal competition (M series and Q series). But there will be those who will buy the SL3/SL3-S if they are satisfied with the modest technologies it has (a gorgeous appearance and a user-friendly menu are very important factors for many). Therefore, constant comparisons in this forum with CaNiSo are pointless, they have different and practically non-intersecting sales markets. Leica was making the SL long before Panasonic or Sigma came along to offer rebadging opportunities (leaving aside Leica's own, non-rebadged, L-mount lenses). Personally I don't need bleeding edge pixel density or blazing BIF AF, which appear to be the only 'technology' many people value. Fortunately Leica excels in the technology that I value most but rarely appears in spec sheets: image quality and colour science, and the engineering of the workflow leading from the photographer's eye to a good photograph. 10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 16 Share #52 Posted January 16 9 minutes ago, frankchn said: I think spec for spec the Leica SL line is priced at approximately 2-3x mainstream manufacturers (e.g. SL3 vs A7RV, SL3-S vs S5IIx), so to me it is still luxury-tier pricing. Canon, Nikon, and Sony offer camera bodies that are priced in the same range as the SL3 and SL3-S. The difference is that Leica doesn't have a budget line, it's a market segment that they leave to Panasonic. There is no point arguing that Leica should offer cheaper gear. Every time they've tried that it's been a failure. They don't have the scale to ship container-loads of product to every shopping mall from Berlin to Singapore, like Panasonic and other big brands do. You need that kind of volume to make ultra-low margins work. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 16 Share #53 Posted January 16 6 minutes ago, sebben said: Can someone tell me if there is any thing substantial here that makes it better than the SL2-S beyond marketing gimmicks? It seems like the only real thing is the that Autofocus is a bit improved and the ProRes codec? For still shooters: handheld multishot, better AF, tiltable screen. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebben Posted January 16 Share #54 Posted January 16 Ok, not much then compared to a price of a used SL2-S. I guess everyone has different priorities. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankchn Posted January 16 Share #55 Posted January 16 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BernardC said: Canon, Nikon, and Sony offer camera bodies that are priced in the same range as the SL3 and SL3-S. The difference is that Leica doesn't have a budget line, it's a market segment that they leave to Panasonic. There is no point arguing that Leica should offer cheaper gear. Every time they've tried that it's been a failure. They don't have the scale to ship container-loads of product to every shopping mall from Berlin to Singapore, like Panasonic and other big brands do. You need that kind of volume to make ultra-low margins work. I agree re: Leica should not try to go down-market, but I am just comparing spec sheet to spec sheet, and here we do find that the Leica is 2x the price from a mainstream manufacturer. Whether that is justified is another question -- I personally think if Leica can charge this much, they should. For instance, the SL3 and the A7RV shares the similar headline specifications (60 MP, 7-10 fps with AE/AF, big bright EVFs, dual card slots, articulating screens) and the A7RV is $3800 and the SL3 is $7000. Sure Sony makes a $6500 A1II and a $6000 A9III, but those are not comparable cameras in terms of headline specifications. The A1II does 30 fps at 50 MP and the A9III does 120 fps at 24 MP with a global shutter. Neither the SL3 or SL3-S are in that range. Edited January 16 by frankchn Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 16 Share #56 Posted January 16 8 minutes ago, sebben said: Can someone tell me if there is any thing substantial here that makes it better than the SL2-S beyond marketing gimmicks? It seems like the only real thing is the that Autofocus is a bit improved and the ProRes codec? It seems to be incrementally improved in all aspects. AF is better, video specifications are better, and overall responsiveness is better. That doesn't mean that you should trade-in your SL2-S, just like new laptop models don't mean that you should trade-in your perfectly functional laptop. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted January 16 Share #57 Posted January 16 11 minutes ago, LBJ2 said: You wrote, " (it's a pity they didn't come to an agreement with Sony, it would have been a bomb camera)" I think you might want to run for cover! 🤣 OTOH, I think Leica and Sony are already working together in the M11, SL3, Q3, Q3-43, SL3-S...Sony Semiconductor Solutions that is. Personally, I fill my bag with both Leica and Sony gear--I don't want to miss a thing 😎 Forgot to mention important factors: New Leica cameras are cheaper than new cars and take up significantly less space, so it's easier to have several. In addition, this forum is much better organized and more interesting than any car forum and we are interested in talking and arguing about it😉 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 16 Share #58 Posted January 16 3 minutes ago, frankchn said: I agree re: Leica trying to go down-market, but I am comparing headline specs vs headline specs. The SL3 and the A7RV shares the similar headline specifications (60 MP+, 7-10 fps with AE/AF, big bright EVFs) and the A7RV is $3800 and the SL3 is $7000. Sure Sony makes a $6500 A1II and a $6000 A9III, but those are not comparable cameras in terms of the spec sheet. The A1II does 30 fps at 50 MP and the A9III does 120 fps at 24 MP with a global shutter. For my use, the SL3 is a much better camera than the a7rV and worth the price difference (I own both cameras). New Leica cameras are much less attractive if you are tight on budget. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankchn Posted January 16 Share #59 Posted January 16 Just now, SrMi said: For my use, the SL3 is a much better camera than the a7rV and worth the price difference (I own both cameras). New Leica cameras are much less attractive if you are tight on budget. Precisely. I have an SL3 because I want to use the APO-SL lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 16 Share #60 Posted January 16 4 minutes ago, frankchn said: I agree re: Leica should not try to go down-market, but I am just comparing spec sheet to spec sheet, and here we do find that the Leica is 2x more expensive. Whether that is justified is another question -- I personally think if Leica can charge this much, they should. For instance, the SL3 and the A7RV shares the similar headline specifications (60 MP+, 7-10 fps with AE/AF, big bright EVFs) and the A7RV is $3800 and the SL3 is $7000. Sure Sony makes a $6500 A1II and a $6000 A9III, but those are not comparable cameras in terms of the spec sheet. The A1II does 30 fps at 50 MP and the A9III does 120 fps at 24 MP with a global shutter. If all you want is the best spec sheet for your buck, then it's obvious where to spend money. The trouble is, there are some things which are difficult to spell out in numbers..... 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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