50mm lens with large aperture suggestion?

[adan]

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8 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Definitely a good lens but the TO asked for f/1.4 to f/1.5 and uses an M3.
Would you recommend it also for the M3 without live view or even an option to check the shot right after it has been taken?

Why ever not?

LEICA introduced their own original Noctilux 50mm f/1.2  40 years before "live view or any option to check the shot."

In the actual M3 (and M2) era - 1966.

Ten years later, 30 years before "live view," and in the M4/5 era (with only 0.72x focus precision), they upped the ante with the 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux.

Edited January 7 by adan

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[pippy]

8 hours ago, kl122002 said:

What I like from Summarit is from the character in B&W . Of course it doesn't do well in colour but when it comes to B&W something seems magic there...

Why not simply look out for another Summarit in good condition with clear optics?

Certainly a great many examples will have issues with haze / scratched elements but Leitz made nearly 75,000 of these lenses so good ones really do exist. Such a lens will also typically cost around half the price of a Summilux in similar condition.

Philip.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb kl122002:

There are too many brands and honestly I have no idea where to begin.

Perhaps this is may be a good starting point for you: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/lenses/leica-lenses/

BastianK's test of the Thypoch Simera 50/1.4 ASPH: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-thypoch-simera-50mm-1-4/

Conclusion: "I actually consider this being the most versatile fast 50mm M-mount lens, especially thanks to its unrivalled minimum focus distance coupled with the floating elements design. This is the do-it-all 50mm M-mount lens for me."

I came to the same concusion.

Edited January 7 by 3D-Kraft.com

[kl122002]

5 hours ago, adan said:

Why ever not?

LEICA introduced their own original Noctilux 50mm f/1.2  40 years before "live view or any option to check the shot."

In the actual M3 (and M2) era - 1966.

Ten years later, 30 years before "live view," and in the M4/5 era (with only 0.72x focus precision), they upped the ante with the 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux.

Someone told be there is a Chinese company remaking this legendary lens too.  Light Lens Lab 1966 . 

https://lightlenslab.com/products/light-lens-lab-50mm-1-2-asph-1966

Do you think it is a try? Or should I just wait for reviews later?

 

[kl122002]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

Why not simply look out for another Summarit in good condition with clear optics?

Certainly a great many examples will have issues with haze / scratched elements but Leitz made nearly 75,000 of these lenses so good ones really do exist. Such a lens will also typically cost around half the price of a Summilux in similar condition.

Philip.

Tried, but it looks like I am really out of luck. The "survived" M-mount Summarit lenses are getting less, and those in better condition (lesser haze and fewer scratches ) are even much rare . 

[pippy]

18 minutes ago, kl122002 said:

Tried, but it looks like I am really out of luck. The "survived" M-mount Summarit lenses are getting less, and those in better condition (lesser haze and fewer scratches ) are even much rare . 

Hmmmm....yes.

I suppose much depends on where you are based. Here in London some of 'The Usual Suspects' get them in reasonably regularly but it is true that those in good condition get snapped up pretty sharpish. Having just had a look for the five that I have seen advertised over the last two weeks or so four have been sold and the remaining one is described thus;

"...useable but scratches and other marks, focus not 100% smooth..."

On the upside? It is being advertised for a pretty reasonable £249.00 / $312.00 / 300.00 Euros!......😸......

To be perfectly fair the dealer who has this lens is well-known for downplaying the condition of his stock but, even so, the condition of the front element is important it is the Xenon / Summarit 50 f1.5; more so than with many other lenses.

There WAS one other advertised recently in 'Excellent Condition' (both optically and cosmetically) which was priced at a fairly high (relatively speaking) £699.00 - if I remember correctly - but was sold within a few days of being listed.

Philip.

[jaapv]

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9 hours ago, kl122002 said:

In fact this is why I failed to list my criteria. There are too many brands and honestly I have no idea where to begin. 

In those days I can stick to Leica, Minolta, Konica or Rollei, but the M/K/R have gone, Chinese and other Japanese lenses are raising and so I am confused. Chinese lens seems cheap to play, but could they do serious works? . It seems to me Light Lens Lab is cloning old Leica lens design and selling relatively higher in price, is it a good brand? 

Traditional film ( especially B&W ) is still my major medium.  I wish a faster lens , particular f/1.4 or 1.5 for dim/night time, and including for general use. 

 Zeiss Sonnar  something I know well from Contax RF, and I wish the current model could do just like the old one. But as I googled the focusing shift seems has been in some older posts. Have Zeiss corrected it today? 

I'm not sure whether Zeiss still produces ZM lenses with Cosina, but the Voigtlander line amply compensates, both in quality and choice. 

[kl122002]

On 1/7/2025 at 8:26 PM, pippy said:

Hmmmm....yes.

I suppose much depends on where you are based. Here in London some of 'The Usual Suspects' get them in reasonably regularly but it is true that those in good condition get snapped up pretty sharpish. Having just had a look for the five that I have seen advertised over the last two weeks or so four have been sold and the remaining one is described thus;

"...useable but scratches and other marks, focus not 100% smooth..."

On the upside? It is being advertised for a pretty reasonable £249.00 / $312.00 / 300.00 Euros!......😸......

To be perfectly fair the dealer who has this lens is well-known for downplaying the condition of his stock but, even so, the condition of the front element is important it is the Xenon / Summarit 50 f1.5; more so than with many other lenses.

There WAS one other advertised recently in 'Excellent Condition' (both optically and cosmetically) which was priced at a fairly high (relatively speaking) £699.00 - if I remember correctly - but was sold within a few days of being listed.

Philip.

I have keep an eye one it for sure. And perhaps will look into pre-asph Summilux as well. However recently I found many of this pre- version seems suffered from a kind of snow flakes like pattern inside . Any idea what is it ? Some are around the edge , some are at the middle as well. 

 

[kl122002]

On 1/7/2025 at 9:45 PM, _tc said:

LLL is awesome but the 1966 is a massive lens. They just opened preorders for a Rigid Summicron v2 Id so much rather have that even on film. Cannot speak to the other companies I don't have experience with their lenses, only LLL

Zeiss has quit stills photography by and large. It's unclear if Cosina is even making many anymore.

People have recommended the Voigtlander 50mm 1.5 v2 and that's a nice lens but has sooooo much vignetting.

And no, the focus shift of the sonnar design has not been fixed. Again the lens that really and truly fixed that problem for fast 50s is the Summilux ASPH. In M mount, it is still the best for this below f2.0 where loads of lenses have effectively none.

Sounds like LLL are very well known in my area as well. People like to talk about it as it has cloned plenty old Leica formula based lenses. I wonder how they could do this? Is that Leica losing the patents of the old lenses? 

If LLL could made a Summarit clone I would definitely buying it . 

I think Consina Japan is still making Zeiss ZM and Voigtlander lenses , at least I still see them in stores.  But since both brands has been here a while people have lost interest form them and moving more towards to Chinese branded M lenses, like TTartisans.  I noticed the TT's 35/2 M mount also has an award from Japanese, and I am interested as well. 

 

 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb kl122002:

I noticed the TT's 35/2 M mount also has an award from Japanese, and I am interested as well.

You should be aware of, that TTArtisan lenses come with a tool for "DIY calibration". On the one hand, it's good that this option exists, but on the other hand, it was also necessary for my two copies. Unlike lenses from Thypoch or Voigtländer, you can't rely on the TTAs being well calibrated from the factory. If you only have a film camera, this can be quite time-consuming.

[BernardC]

32 minutes ago, kl122002 said:

People like to talk about it as it has cloned plenty old Leica formula based lenses. I wonder how they could do this? Is that Leica losing the patents of the old lenses?

Patents expire after a while. Wikipedia says it's after 20 years in Germany.

[pippy]

38 minutes ago, kl122002 said:

...(LLL) has cloned plenty old Leica formula based lenses. I wonder how they could do this? Is that Leica losing the patents of the old lenses?...

My understanding is that patents are granted for finite timeframes; typically 20 years from the date the patent was registered / awarded. It is possible to apply for an extension after this period but usually there would need to have been some form of alteration to the original design for this to happen

The original Leitz '8-Element' 35mm Summicron was introduced in 1958 so any patent Leica had for it would have elapsed long before LLL released their reverse-engineered clone. Same story with the other Leica designs as well as the LLL Speed Panchro release.

Philip.

EDIT : I see Bernard and I were typing at the same time......😸......glad to see our 20 year timeframes matched!

Edited January 8 by pippy

[kl122002]

8 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

You should be aware of, that TTArtisan lenses come with a tool for "DIY calibration". On the one hand, it's good that this option exists, but on the other hand, it was also necessary for my two copies. Unlike lenses from Thypoch or Voigtländer, you can't rely on the TTAs being well calibrated from the factory. If you only have a film camera, this can be quite time-consuming.

Good to know. I know some basics in calibrating lenses as I do repair in most of the time. Many old lenses (especially those M42 SLR lens) has lost the infinity.  Perhaps I would look into used market and see if I could get a really bargain priced and have a try. 

In that case, it seems LLL, Thypoch, Voigtlander or the original Leica are much better  in built quality?  🤔 

 

8 hours ago, BernardC said:

Patents expire after a while. Wikipedia says it's after 20 years in Germany.

But how about Zeiss's lenses? I don't see anyone would clone Zeiss's design , like they the way they do in L's formula and promo? 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kl122002:

In that case, it seems LLL, Thypoch, Voigtlander or the original Leica are much better  in built quality?  🤔 

Propably, but I don't see an issue with TTA's build quality. Only time will tell.
But the TTA 50/1.4 is bigger than the others.

  

vor einer Stunde schrieb kl122002:

But how about Zeiss's lenses? I don't see anyone would clone Zeiss's design , like they the way they do in L's formula and promo? 

Many Jupiter lenses from Russia are Zeiss clones.

Edited January 9 by 3D-Kraft.com

[lct]

Last time i used film, focus shift was not a problem if i remember well. The Sonnar 50/1.5 (left) being my favorite fast 50 in digital, besides the Summilux 50/1.4 asph v1 (right), i would give it a try if its 0.9m MFD is not  problem for you.

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Edited January 9 by lct

[lct]

The Sonnar is not soft but gentler on closeups than the Summilux asph BTW. Below Sonnar at 0.9m, f/2 on M11, full frame and crop.

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[kl122002]

2 hours ago, lct said:

The Sonnar is not soft but gentler on closeups than the Summilux asph BTW. Below Sonnar at 0.9m, f/2 on M11, full frame and crop.

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That's really nice!

I decided to write to Zeiss and see if they could officially answer me whether the focus shift issues still exists. If it has been resolved I would definitely get a copy for myself.

[kl122002]

4 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Many Jupiter lenses from Russia are Zeiss clones.

I never liked the any old Soviet lenses. Their quality are really random. I had 3 Jupiter -3 ( which should be a Sonnar 50/1.5 clone) and each of them has their own problems 

 

Just hoping the Consina Japan could fixed it. I really wish a Sonnar, or maybe a pre -asph Summilux 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hansvons]

On 1/7/2025 at 6:32 AM, kl122002 said:

Traditional film ( especially B&W ) is still my major medium.  I wish a faster lens , particular f/1.4 or 1.5 for dim/night time, and including for general use. 

I'm the same here. I shoot 90% film, and the bigger chunk is BW, mostly Kodak Double-X and Tri-X. Despite being a 35mm guy, I do own a fifty for the occasional portrait. I also should say that I would never consider myself an expert on M-mount lenses. So, what I write is only meant to inspire or offer perspective from a fellow M film photographer.

Because I love a clean shelf for creativity reasons, I committed myself to only one fifty that should do it all. And it should be reasonably priced. I ended up with a V4 Canada Summicron. I believe it’s the essence of an M fifty, as compact and ergonomic as a fifty can get and is still affordable.

Why not f/1.4? In most circumstances, I find it easier to obtain a sharp image at f/2 and 1/30 of a second than at f/1.4 and a "safe" 1/60. The Summicron is astonishingly sharp at  f/2, and only the Summilux ASPH is as good at the same aperture in Leica‘s lineup. 

On film, thin exposures should be avoided whenever possible. I find the real f stop advantage of most f/1.4 lenses only about half a stop as the increased vignetting at open aperture masks the gained stop, thus making edges prone to underexposure. On digital, this can be remedied in post. On film, not so much. Also, in most cases, sharpness decreases at full aperture up to a point that I find unacceptable, with modern ASPH designs being the notable exception. But as usual, you pay for what you get—not only money but size and weight, which I find for the M system essential.

TLDR: only modern ASPH designs are able to deliver acceptable sharpness at f/1.4 and offer a real gain of 1 stop over less extreme lens designs provided their vignetting is well-controlled (which often is not the case). All of that is a matter of taste, of course.

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, kl122002 said:

But how about Zeiss's lenses? I don't see anyone would clone Zeiss's design , like they the way they do in L's formula and promo? 

Everyone has copied Zeiss' designs over the years. What brand hasn't made a Planar-type or Tessar-type lens? They don't necessarily copy the look and feel of Zeiss lenses in most cases.

LLL was working on a Hologon replica a few years ago, I wonder if it will ever come out.