Non-Leica 39mm LTM lenses

[UliWer]

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The thread mount with 39mm for the old Leica any manifold other cameras which were more or less Leica copies allowed many producers to offer at least some of their lenses for this mount. Most of them are rangefinder coupled and can easily and without manipulation used on M-mount cameras for film and digital. So it's perhaps worthwhile to start an own thread for these different non-Leica 39mm LTM lenses. 

There are already examples taken with one or other in this ongoing thread: 

I propose to continue using "The view through older glass" for showing photos taken with these lenses. Here we could present and discuss the lenses themselves and use links to the examples.

 

 

 

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[farnz]

9 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I propose to continue using "The view through older glass" for showing photos taken with these lenses. Here we could present and discuss the lenses themselves and use links to the examples.

Thank you, UliWer.  The View Through Older Glass thread is intended as a picture-only thread so I agree that it would be better if discussions about LTM lenses etc remain in this subforum or elsewhere. 🙂

Pete.

[willeica]

British side dealt with here, but I did not include everything, particularly those lenses which were around in the 1950s.

Note that some of the early lenses shown in this are 33mm for the I Model A rather than 39mm for the LTM mount which came in around 1930. I was amazed at the number of people who did not know about this. The difference in mount size is illustrated in my talk. The 'cover image' shows a C mount 3 inch Dallmeyer which has a thick LTM 39mm mount to compensate for the smaller native C mount (for cine). I acquired the 12 inch Dallmeyer with coupled LTM mount after I did this talk. 

William 

[UliWer]

I start with a lens which has an almost household name - though mostly for the M-mount: the "Hexanon".

There were only a few "Hexar" or "Hexanon" lenses with 39mm LTM made during the time when the producer wasn't already called "Konica" but "Konishiroku": http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Konishiroku_lenses_in_Leica_screw_mount

The  1:3.5/50mm Hexar, a collapsible Tessar design, was not produced in large quantities and the 1:1.2/60mm Hexanon is an extremely rare and expensive outlier.

More common though still rather rare today is the 1:1.9/50mm Hexanon:

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It was introduced in 1954 and seems to have been sold mostly from 1956 onwards.  The lens design followed the model of the 1:2/50mm Voigtländer Ultron though it isn't a mere copy. When I compared it to the 1. (collapsible) version of the 1:2/5cm Summicron I found the Summicron had the better resolution in the center and the Hexanon was a lot better in the corners, with visible barrel distortion, while the Summicron shows none. So the overall character is similar to the Zeiss 1:2/50mm Sonnar. The difference between f/1.9 and f/2 doesn't matter, I found the reasults from the Summicron even a bit brighter at f/2 than from the Hexanon at f/1.9 - though this may be due to my individual item. Some examples here: 

Most sources say that it has a 40.5mm filter thread. This is true for the later version, but my earlier example has just 39.5mm. 39mm filters won't fit, 40mm do, though they are almost as rare as 39.5mm. I don't know whether the lens was originally offered with a hood, it certainly needs one as it is prone to flare like the Summicron. Leica hoods with clamps like the IROOA will fit though they won't stick on the rim. The solution comes from Canon with it's hood for the 1:1.8/50 and 1:2.8/35mm LTM lenses: it has a screw to fix it and you can use Serie VI filters with it. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by UliWer

[oldwino]

I have a copy of the Konishiroku Hexanon 50/1.9. Mine takes 40.5mm filters.

I find the lens to be sharp, with better contrast than it’s Leitz contemporary Summicron.  I assume that’s because the Japanese were better at coatings than the Germans at this time. 
It’s a wonderful lens shot around f4, and wide open it gives a nice 3-D effect because of some field curvature. Stopped down it’s a dead-ringer for a Summicron. 

[sandro]

Of the wide range of Canon rangefinder lenses I like the 1.5/50mm a lot. I have the version produced between 1953 and 1957, has 7 elements in 3 groups. I should probably use it more wide open, but in general it's very sharp with very good color rendition. It takes a beautiful very thin 40mm screw-in filter. I haven't yet been able to find the original hood, but the Leitz 12585 fits as well.

Lex

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[frame-it]

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tonnes of really nice lenses, easier to get in japan

195 leica M39  lenses here >

https://allphotolenses.com/lenses/systems/c_55.html

 

181 M39 lenses here, some will work fine some may not >

https://allphotolenses.com/lenses/systems/c_14.html

 

14 pages here >

https://www.kentfaith.com/mount_27?page=1

 

74 Companies List here >

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/39mm_screw_lenses

 

 

more >

https://www.canonrangefinder.org/Nikkor_50mm.htm

https://www.canonrangefinder.org/Minolta_lenses.htm

https://www.canonrangefinder.org/M39_lenses.htm

[UliWer]

Am 10.12.2024 um 00:02 schrieb frame-it:

195 leica M39  lenses here >

https://allphotolenses.com/lenses/systems/c_55.html

 

181 M39 lenses here, some will work fine some may not >

https://allphotolenses.com/lenses/systems/c_14.html

 

14 pages here >

https://www.kentfaith.com/mount_27?page=1

 

These lists have many items with a 39mm thread mount which is not the right one for the Leica camera ("LTM" mount). E.g. many lenses by Staeble, Enna or Schneider were made for the Braun Paxette camera, which has a totally different flange-to-film distance so they won't reach infinity with a Leica and of course they are not coupled with the rangefinder. Other cases which may fit the LTM-mount but won't focus properly are those made for the Russian "MIR"-SLR-mount. 

The lists also contain many Russian "Industar" and "Jupiter" lenses which were originally designed for the Contax-standard of the "Kiev" cameras which also differs from the Leica standard, so even if they are coupled focussing with the rangefinder will be a hit and miss affair. 

Both is mentioned here:

74 Companies List here >

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/39mm_screw_lenses

Of course lenses which were made for projectors or copying stands also listed above won't work directly on the camera, as you cannot focus them properly or not at all. 

The link to canonrangefinder.org seams to be dead. You find a complete survey of Canon lenses with "LTM" mount which (usually) perfectly fit the Leica here:

https://global.canon/en/c-museum/lens.html?s=s

(btw: It's a shame that Leica Camera doesn't seem to be able to publish such an online "museum" for their cameras and lenses. And I fear if they tried it would have the "quality" of the kentfaith list which shows a lot of wrong pictures for the lenses..)

Edited December 11, 2024 by UliWer

[pgk]

This is a good starting list: https://cameraquest.com/ltmlens.htm although it is not complete.

[UliWer]

Well, all those lists seem to be more or less exact (in many cases just outright wrong) and especially the assessments of performances are debatable at least.

Here is one example which most lists don't even mention:

The Steinheil Quinon 1:2 f=50mm:

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Steinheil - dating back to 1839 as a producer of photographic instruments and to 1854 as a lens designer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_August_von_Steinheil - offered some lenses with 39mm mount for the Leica shortly after WW II. The Culminar 1:4.5 f=135mm and the  Orthostigmat 1:4.5 f=35mm served as cheaper alternatives to Leitz lenses and therefore they are not rare on the second hand market (at least in Europe). 

Later they made many lenses for other cameras, also with 39mm but not with the Leica standard, especially for the Braun Paxette (Cassar, Cassarit, Culminar with shorter focal length et al). They even tried to introduce their own rangefinder camera, the "Casca", which was an odd and interesting design, but not successful on the market: https://www.leitz-auction.com/de/Steinheil-Casca-II/AI-33-36685

The 1:2/50mm Quinon was the only lens (I know) introduced later in the 50s with 39mm LTM and rangefinder coupling. It is said to be designed on the model of the Sonnar. 

You may find a few examples with the Quinon here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/search/?q=Quinon&quick=1&type=forums_topic&item=268173

I think the performance is quite good, especially it is very resistant against flare.

Its speciality is the close focussing mechanism:  

 

Focussing down to 0.6m with no rangefinder coupling wasn't very useful at the time of LTM cameras and perhaps this was the reason that it remained a rather rare lens. With LiveView you can use it now like the modern Leica designs.

It takes Summitar filters and the rims of these filter hold an IROOA hood very well. 

 

 

[sandro]

Let me continue with Steinheil then, since UliWer brought the name up. Widely known I think are both Culminar lenses, the 2.8/85mm and the 4.5/135mm, both four elements in three groups. Dating from the early 1950's and produced in LTM, these are relatively nice alternatives for Leitz lenses from the same period. They both perform quite well, both in sharpness and in contrast. 

Lex

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[sandro]

The lens heads of both Culminar 85mm and 135mm can be unscrewed for use on bellows, unfortunately not with the same adapter. Results with the Culminar 135mm used on bellows this way are very good. Shown here with Novoflex Culring adapter, and on Novoflex Bellows, with Visoflex III on Leica M3.

Lex

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[UliWer]

It seems the hood and especially the "Culring" Adapter from Novoflex are much more rare than the lenses themselves.

[sandro]

Yes, you are right. It took me quite some time to find the hood and I am happy that it fits both lenses, so I don't have to find another hood. The Novoflex Culring seems to have almost disappeared.

Lex

[UliWer]

In a German catalogue from 1955/56 i read that the lens head of the 135mm Culminar could be adapted to a Visoflex or Leitz bellows by an "extension ring" (which is not further specified). 

The prices for Steinheil lenses with LTM in 1955/56 were:

1:4.5/35mm Orthostigmat  - 186,- DM

1:2.8/85mm Culminar         - 165,- DM

1:4.5/135mm Culminar        - 216,- DM

In 1955 the price for the 1:3.5/35mm Summaron was 220,-DM, for the 1:4.5/135mm Hektor 340,- DM. The 1:4/90mm Elmar was 200,-DM, the 1:28/90mm Elmarit (1959) 339,- DM. 

[sandro]

I have that list. In a 1953 Novoflex pricelist (in German) the price for the Culring is DM 7,50 and the price for the Culminar 4.5/135mm for use with the Leica was also DM 216,-. The Culminar 2.8/85mm is not mentioned and may not have been available yet in LTM.

Lex

[willeica]

Pre-war price list for British Dallmeyer lenses for Leica Cameras

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Post war advertisement for British Stewartry lenses which does not mention prices. 

Review of the Stewartry 10.5 cm f3.5 lens from 1947.

My Stewartry on an M10 and a photo I took with this combination. It is a very fine lens indeed.

 

William 

[zeitz]

22 hours ago, UliWer said:

In a German catalogue from 1955/56 i read that the lens head of the 135mm Culminar could be adapted to a Visoflex or Leitz bellows by an "extension ring" (which is not further specified). 

The 135mm Culminar was also available in a Visoflex I short mount.

Sears in the US also sold Steinheil lenses (35mm f4.5, 85mm f2.8 and 135mm f4.5) with their Tower trademark in addition to the normal Steinheil markings at $59.95 each in 1958.  "Lenses made by Steinheil of Germany - also fit Canon, Leica (expect M3) cameras."  The catalog writer was confused, with the descriptions saying "Includes lens cap, leather case, view finder.  Lens mount diameter 42mm."  Or "Includes lens cap, leather case, view finder.  Lens mount diameter 36mm."  (Italics added by me.)  42mm is of course the Praktica mount and later Asahi Pentax mount, and 36mm is the previous Asahiflex mount.  These lenses woudln't come with view finders.  I have the 85mm f2.8 lens in Asahiflex mount.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[UliWer]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica:

Post war advertisement for British Stewartry lenses which does not mention prices. 

Have you ever seen the "Coupling device to enable Contax long focus lenses to be used on the Leica Camera with dead accurate rangefinder coupling" mentioned in the Stewartry advertisement?

P.S.: More about Stewartry here: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Stewartry  I think the "Camera Wiki" is a good source for information about historic cameras and lenses.

Edited December 13, 2024 by UliWer

[pgk]

Stweartry were in essence an engineering business which branched out into photographic equipment. They seem to have worked in aluminium and bought in the optics from Taylor, Taylor & Hobson's 'subsidiary' National Optical Company (perhaps this name was a WW2 way of spreading confusion or had some other intention - I've not been able to fully discover why it was formed).

Having owned a couple of Trinol 105mm lenses I can say that they were fairly typical of their time; centrally fine with fall off towards the edges and of somewhat low contrast. But in WW2 and post war austerity years they filled a gap in a difficult market and as such seem to have been somewhat successful for a time at least. As time progressed though, their optics do not seem to have kept up with others and as imports eased and with British optical manufacturers facing hard times, with little R&D into lenses suitable for miniature cameras, and the eventual purchase of many optical manufacturers by the Rank organisation, Stweratry probably found that they had no suppliers able to provide suitable optics to enable them to continue in the photographic sector. They produced some other photographic (and a few engineering) items some of which regularly crop up on ebay and are usually fairly moderately priced. What is unique about Stewartry lenses is that they are marked "Made in Scotland" and as such are probably the only lenses for which this claim is made. Today they would have to be careful beause the NOC optics were most likely produced in Leicester, in England, and it is only the focus mount which was actually fabricated in Glasgow!